26. Travis Cottrell on The Importance of Authenticity

In our media and marketing-driven world, people -- as consumers -- can become quickly disenchanted. In fundraising, we want to strike a balance between being prepared and not "performing."  Travis Cottrell joins us in this episode and highlights the importance of authenticity in approaching others and inviting them into partnership.

This year, Travis will celebrate a ministry milestone: 25 years of serving alongside Beth Moore as worship leader for Living Proof Ministries. Travis also currently serves as Worship Pastor at Brentwood Baptist Church in Brentwood, TN.

Travis' website

It would be so helpful if you would take a moment to rate and review the show - thanks in advance!

Have an idea for a guest or topic? WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU!

Contact us!
on Instagram @ its.not.about.the.money.pod

THANKS FOR LISTENING!

Transcript

travis cottrell: 0:00

There's always room for us whether we're the presenters or the leaders or the receivers, there's always room for more sensitivity, the spirit can have more room for that. There's always room for more generosity. And there's always room for more authenticity. And those are all three characteristics that bring success no matter what you're fundraising for, or whatever point you're trying to get your the people you're leading to, that will get them there.

Heather Winchell: 0:36

Welcome to it's not about the money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather, and together with my co host, Andy, we look beyond the Quick Tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry, fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it, this is the place for you.

Andy Brennan: 0:59

Welcome back to the show everyone. Those who are fundraising operate in a tricky tension. And we've talked about this before. On the one hand, we need to do our part well show up prepared, be bold and vulnerable, and speak with conviction and clarity. On the other hand, God's provision doesn't come down to our performance. It isn't on us to make something happen, but it can feel like it is. Our guest today holds a similar tension. He also works in a position that can either be driven by a felt need to perform, or from a secure place of being a catalyst or a conduit or a medium for God to show up. He has had to wrestle with the tension of leading worship when he doesn't feel like it, and staying grounded in the reality that it isn't about him, though, ultimately, giving everything he has really does matter. Heather, would you like to introduce our guests,

Heather Winchell: 1:54

I would love to introduce our guests. Today, we are so pleased to be joined by Travis Cottrell. And just to give you guys a bit of info on Travis. So he has spent the last 30 years answering the call of God in a variety of ways as an artist, a songwriter, a worship leader, an author and an arranger. And from the local church to all around the world. He has put many good and beautiful things into the world and has graciously agreed to join us today. You guys can read more specifics about Travis on his website. But right now we have him here with us, Travis, we would love to hear about what brought you to this point in your life.

travis cottrell: 2:33

Hey, you guys. Thanks for having me.

Andy Brennan: 2:36

Absolutely. Good

travis cottrell: 2:37

to see. Good to see you all today. Well, gosh, how long do we have? That's a that's a big that was so wide open that question what brought me to this point in my life.

Andy Brennan: 2:49

Take it take it as you want to?

travis cottrell: 2:51

Well, you know, I I live in Nashville, Tennessee, and I've been in Tennessee ever since I finished college. I grew up in Boone, North Carolina in the mountains of North Carolina, one of the most beautiful places on earth. And I went to I went two years to college there at Appalachian State and then transferred to Belmont in Nashville and finished there and have been in Tennessee ever since. You know, yes, a question like, how are you where you are right now I feel like in so many ways. I have been doing the same thing. With my calling and my life. Ever since I got out of college like the the rooms have changed a little bit, the crowds have changed a little bit. Sometimes my daily tasks change, that if you strip it all down, I've just I've been doing the same thing this whole time. And I mean that in a positive way. I don't mean like, gosh, I'm bored. They're doing the same thing. I I feel like God made me to be in a clipper and to create resources to kind of have a an eye and a mind and a heart to see where there is a need for a resource and then find a way to meet that need. And so that's what I've been doing. I mean, I graduated from Belmont and I started working at a church and Nashville, one thing led to another, you know, just six years out of college, I was traveling with Beth Moore, we you know, we began we began that ministry of Living Proof live in 1998. And we're still going yeah, you know, we just celebrated our 25th year last year. So and we're you know, we are beginning our new our new season together right now. So and then, you know, just been busy working, working in church, leading people in worship, gathering musicians and singers and lay people who want to serve whether it was my full time job or it was just if I was just volunteering, whatever. Just been doing that. I'll be times I'm very much, you know, I don't want to dive too deeply into where we're headed too soon. But I am a very reluctant artist I've been, you know, I've made lots of records and, and a lot of people know that side of me and I, I love that. But I'm a very reluctant artists, I don't think like an artist, I think like a, like a pastor. And I think like, like a resource maker. So when I don't default to, here's my art, take it or leave it. Here, here's, here's, here's my music, take it or leave it my I default to what do you need? And how can how can I serve your church or gonna serve your ministry with a piece of music or an arrangement or a song, or my presence to come in, you know, encourage you. So it's been an interesting thing, right? I have been writing this tension of artists in worship leader, because they're not synonymous. Interesting. And so I've been just writing that for for 30 years. And that's what I was doing right out of college, and I'm still doing it now.

Heather Winchell: 6:09

I really, really appreciate everything you said. And I don't want to go too far on a rabbit hole. But I do want to ask you, because there was a song you sang at a recent event I went to, so will I or the stars? Do you know what I'm talking about?

travis cottrell: 6:23

I know what you're talking about. It's a song called Creation sayings. And I will praise you though. And it was more performative. Right?

Heather Winchell: 6:29

Yeah. But it's beautiful. And you wrote that song? Correct?

travis cottrell: 6:33

I did. I did. And I, you know, I do kind of go down those roads of more artistic expressions. But when it comes to playing them out in real life ministry, I I weave those into moments that they don't begin there. And they don't end there. So I we've those moments of worship, hopefully, where it's still taking a worshiper on the journey. Yes. And, you know, we sing, we sing together to get there, and then we sing out of it. And so yeah, I do have that side. And I'm always kind of balancing it. But at the end of the day, I my favorite room to be in is one where, you know, we're worshiping and I can just get out of the way. And my voice is one of many shorts. Yeah, no one. Yeah.

Heather Winchell: 7:23

All right. So Travis, could you share with us any experiences you've had in fundraising, whether for yourself on behalf of others, or even as somebody who's been invited into partnership?

travis cottrell: 7:34

Yes. And again, I, as kind of a branch of who I, who God has had me to be in the space of, have someone that's kind of on a platform and has some level of some level of a voice in some people's lives and trying to manage that, and, and taking all of that, that God has, has given to me in terms of a platform. But all the while feeling reluctant to accept it, I'll never forget, when I I never thought of myself, like, from the very beginning, when I started with Beth, we, she, she won't talk about any of her own resources on stage. And I always appreciated that about her, that she she would never talk about her resources. She never wanted to sell anything from the platform. That was the time for worship, worship in the Word. And I really found comfort in that. And I adopted that as kind of my own way. And I don't judge anyone who does that, like I'm not making any kind of statement of what's right or wrong. I'm just saying what I learned from her what she was comfortable with was also what I was comfortable with, and that you know, those that kind of sacred spaces reserved for worship and the word. And so we just don't really sell things. So when it came time to represent other things that we believed in that were causes that were way bigger than us. We really had to reevaluate how do we make that how do we make that work and I'll never forget in 2000 and the 2008 Compassion International as an as a relief organization that had approached me numerous times about representing them when I am on a platform or have have some kind of some manner of voice. And I was so reluctant and I kept saying no, and I kept saying no, I just it is not a natural place for me to get up and go You all need that you need this that you should have this in your life not just they need you in their lives. You need this in your life. I couldn't find that voice in me. And they said well go on a trip with us. You know, which is which is what they do and right my wife and I already you know we sponsored compassion kid So we had a history of sponsoring them and loved the ministry, everything that we knew it to be in our limited information just as a participant. So we go on a trip, we go to Haiti, and I ended up being able to meet one of our compassion, children. Oh, wow. Which was, it was mind blowing, and the game changed. And that moment of understanding, you know, some things are just worth you busting out of your own comfort zone. And the idea that the Lord isn't necessarily worried about, it's not a priority for him, for us to be comfortable. And so then it came, then then the assignment came to me how to live in that tension of, of what is the best way to make my voice highly effective, and still, it make it work. And so it was Compassion International, that really put that in my ballpark by inviting me in, by by giving me the experience and helping me see with my own eyes what I was representing. And that really was important to me. So then I can go with people who trust me. And especially in the area of worship, if they trust me to lead them in worship, through song and experience, then I need to be trustworthy to lead them in other areas of worship that weren't necessarily musical. Sure. And I believe getting to be one of those. Yes, amen. So it was just working through that and then finding, you know, what is how do you turn your voice into something that can take people down that journey, and where it, people have to believe you for them to follow you. And so that was where That's where it all began with me back in 2007 2008, with compassion and advice, very cool.

Heather Winchell: 12:05

Man, a couple of really powerful things you said. I mean, obviously, the just calling out that generosity giving partnership is, can be a form of worship. Yeah. Right. And then also that God isn't interested in our comfort, you know, sometimes we're called to uncomfortable things for the good of others, to invite them into something that's for their good or for His glory. That was good.

Andy Brennan: 12:29

Yeah. And a really practical thing that stood out to me was that things change, when donors are able to meet the people that they're impacting. Yeah. So right, that shifted everything for you. And I think, for someone, maybe on this side, who doesn't, you know, if you're writing a support letter, or you're doing something where you don't have the ability to introduce your donors, to the people that you were ministering to how important it is to communicate that impact and how to show that in a really tangible way. Yeah.

travis cottrell: 13:02

I think, you know, I think generally speaking, people follow who they trust, and people trust people who are authentic through vulnerability. I think, you know, artists, so many times can fake an authenticity, but it's really through our vulnerability that people can really, really come to trust you really come to trust you understand, I remember those early days of talking about compassion, just expressing you guys. I didn't want to do this. Because I feel uncomfortable talking about money. I feel uncomfortable that that has, that's not a place that I come from, in putting that before people. It's just not something I've done. Sure. But I gotta tell you, I went and experienced this with my own eyes, and I smell the smells. And I saw the sights. And I looked in the eyes of a mom whose child I was sponsoring, who spoke and broken Creole English, she barely knew any words. And all she said, all she could say was Thank you. And she never smiled, and she never looked anything but exhausted because she had nine children and a blind husband who couldn't work. And, and so I was, you know, when I'm able to say that, and then say to them, the only thing I could think to say back to her was No, thank you. No, thank you. And she would never know what I meant by that. What I really meant that by that as as I'm trying to raise and I had three young young children at the time, in my experience that I was sharing, you know, for the platform back then was I was thanking her from saving us from just our own selves, and our own greediness and our own self focus, whether it's on the those very first dollar aisles that that hit you at Target or whatever it is, that where we are wasting away things when the smallest amount of the smallest amount of giving can change somebody his life forever. So yeah, you know, it's just, it's just, I finally had to overcome my fear of speaking about money and giving, and be really vulnerable about why that's a struggle, but that I found something that was worth it. And when we know when we find something that's worth it, we're willing to talk about it, and then our vulnerability will lead people to that same place, I believe. Okay,

Andy Brennan: 15:27

so I have a question. Let's dig a little bit deeper. And maybe the answer is similar, but personal fundraising, and leading other people in worship, that could feel different, especially from the outside looking in, and maybe they are, but we believe maybe there's a common posture required by both. So one that is, is humble and obedient, and accepts, do those words resonate when you think about the work that you do?

travis cottrell: 15:52

Absolutely. And I, you started talking, and I immediately thought about Romans 12. One. And two, really, this is I urge you, therefore by the mercies of God to present yourself as living sacrifices, yeah. Right, holy and acceptable to God, this is your spiritual service of worship. So to live a sacrificial life means that we're going to live a giving life, right, yeah. And so that's part of our worship. It's right there in Romans, you know, and then, and then verse two goes on and says, Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, which means we, if we're transformed to not see the world in our lives, like the world tells us, then that means we have no option, but to see the need around us. It's not optional, that if we're going to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, then that means we have to step into a sacrificial giving life. And that's our spiritual service of worship, as Paul says.

Heather Winchell: 17:02

So Travis, can you tell me about a time in your ministry when your role felt more like performance and less like creating space for God to show up? And does it ever feel connected to the size of congregation or audience like, do you ever get in your head? And it feel harder to just be present? Let the Lord do his thing? It's like a larger audience or smaller? How does that work for you?

travis cottrell: 17:24

You know, I think I think I could, I think I could go straight to again, talking about with a fundraising angle book, because I do have an experience there. I began to create this unhealthy, incorrect mindset, that preparedness and sharing my message was equated to inauthenticity, hmm. I'm a, I'm a shoot from the hip guy. For instance, on a Sunday morning at my church, when I'm responsible for, you know, I often call myself the Minister of announcements, because I've got, I've, you know, I'm the guy that has to hit all the things, the transition to the giving moment, the transition to the prayer moment, I've got to say this, and this and this, and we talked about messaging and all that kind of stuff. And I'll have an idea of the essence of the day, but I don't memorize a script. Sure. So because I feel like sometimes that translates more authentic authentically to our Pete, my people. And so, you know, it's a little bit shoot from the hip. But I have also had a tendency to take that to too far of a level of the level in terms of when I am representing an agency, an organization or something from a platform, I operate only on emotion. Okay, and I can get really emotional about whether it's kids or a missions organization, an outreach group that, you know, I have a tendency to pull my emotions way up here and speak out of that, when I really am not allowing myself the gift of preparedness, understanding that preparedness doesn't mean performance. And preparedness, preparedness doesn't mean that we're going to they're going to read us as an authentic. So finding that balance of how God has gifted me. And, you know, to be able to kind of speak off the cuff or given given natural vibe or whatever it is, but also be ready with the facts. And there have been times where I have worked with organizations before and we have been deep into relationship and they'll come in they'll they'll be there when I give my my word about the organization and they'll pull me off the platform right now. That was really good and you did this business. Now. Here's what we need you to do. And I had to be willing to be humble and go, Oh, I have room to grow there. I can't just operate on this level of emotion and and, and just what I would you know, if I felt like I was anointed for the moment, but I have to be willing to be prepared and share what needs to be shared and succinct and relatable ways. And, you know, move through that, with my emotion and with my gifting, but not to leave that aside, if that makes sense. Yeah, those have been the hardest. Those have been hard moments for me were inviting the gift of rehearsal and inviting the gift of learning into my area, which has been largely dominated by natural gifting.

Andy Brennan: 20:40

Yeah, that's great. That makes sense. Yeah, it

Heather Winchell: 20:42

does make sense. So you don't feel like you're walking onto a stage with a burden to make something happen. But what you're saying is, you do think that in some cases, you feel like it would better serve you to be more concrete in your preparation, as opposed to more like, on the fly, or Yeah, free form?

travis cottrell: 21:02

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Especially when I'm asking something that's as tangible as a donation or sponsorship, or when that is tied to it. I feel like, you know, I need to go way deeper and preparedness than I would even for the main part of my night, which would be leading worship. I don't ever get nervous. I don't I don't get nervous, like leading worship. And I don't think of it as well. We have 3000 people at church this morning, as opposed to, we have 50 people. But I do when the element of asking for a donation or sponsorship or whatever, when that gets into play, I have had to learn that being prepared and speaking forthrightly with facts along with my feelings is going to in the long run, be way more highly effective. Yeah. And then just me trying to land landed all on charisma. Yeah.

Heather Winchell: 22:05

Yeah, or just like authenticity, I can tell that authenticity and that vulnerability are high values for you. And I actually think those are really high values for many in our culture these days, especially around Can I trust what you're saying? Can I trust what you're asking of me? You know, so I think that those are really, really key attributes to have.

Andy Brennan: 22:26

Yeah, and I think the key that carries over and tell me if you agree with me how there but preparedness does not equal performance. Right? Like, we really preach a lot, like, Don't come over overly, like, engage in a formula and like, trusting in your presentation to do it, but just engage authentically. But there's a balance there where you, you do have to be prepared. You can't go completely off the cuff, you have to know information about the people that you're going to serve. Yeah.

Heather Winchell: 22:57

Well, and you know, I think that Travis called it out well, when he said that when he's preparing, you know, in for his local fellowship for these different periods, where his voice leading people into kind of the next thing, but he comes kind of with the essence of what he wants to say, but without a script. And I think that's actually such an excellent example of what we would hope people could do in their fundraising mean, of course, towards the beginning, they're probably going to need a little bit more preparation, a little bit more preparation as they're getting started. But just like you, you know, in the context of your home church, doing these things that you do routinely, I think that still having that kind of baseline of knowing where you're going with something, but not needing a script is helpful. Yeah,

Andy Brennan: 23:39

you just have to be prepared, like, do some research ahead of time, go to the, you know, go to the Joshua project, or go to you know, find some stats to support the story in the heart and the emotion behind it. I think yeah, both of those things.

travis cottrell: 23:52

And I think I agree with both of you there. And there was something you said a minute ago Andy that made me realize that probably the experience or even the the tension falls on the opposite side of the coin for a lot of people in that I've been on a platform my whole life. So you know, I was in plays and musicals from the time I was, you know, three four or five and so being in front of people speaking about something is natural to me but other people who are put in a position where God calls them to raise money that they're not that's not their gifting and so yeah, we exactly what you just said a minute ago Andy that they come over prepared and it's on the other side of rather than Super up off the cuff and emotional and not a lot of facts or you know, good information is the other side of being rigid and over prepared and memorize when in actuality the joy is right in the middle because neither side is going to is going to really work as well as right in the middle where we are just authentic, not slick, you know, slick always. I just don't think slick works. No, I don't think super shy And he polished and perfect. Ultimately, I think people, I think a flag goes off or something, right? I think when we are just not slick, but transparent, authentic and real, no matter which side we're coming from on that, we have our facts, and we have our experience. So we put them together and share it authentically, I think that's the best place to land.

Heather Winchell: 25:24

It's good. Knowing that many of the spaces that you have the privilege of stepping into whether it be a living proof conference, or some type of concert event, or some, you know, even even the local church setting, I feel like sometimes other people can have like expectations of what that time is going to look like or the way the results that it might have. I mean, there there can just be a lot of expectations. How do you kind of stay grounded in what your part in that is and what God's part in that is? In terms of whatever he would produce? Right?

travis cottrell: 25:56

And I think I do, I do have struggles with that I think we all do. As I get older, I feel like my perspective has changed. There's something about it that as I get older, it's like, I'm not right here in my life. This is gonna sound weird. And I've never said this out loud. I'm like processing this. But it's almost like a start rising above my life and seeing a bigger picture. And that I just don't worry about it. If I get into I'm just not down in the moments, not experienced experientially, I am experiencing life, but it's I just see a bigger, longer curve and a bigger picture. Where if you know, if someone has this expectation of me that I feel is unfair, or even off base, it doesn't bother me like I used to, I was such a pleaser. And I still am to a certain degree. But you know, that's that wrestling of being a pleaser. And going after that one person just like to make that person, well, that person thinks we do this too much, or that person not enough. And this person, you know, I got a I got a call just this morning from very influential man in my life, and he was just he was calling to encourage me. But in his encouragement, he was saying you're doing this, we really love you doing this. And and, you know, they're here for that. And, you know, I had to like really kind of God, what do you want me to receive from this? What is beneficial for what I'm producing? What is just beneficial for my own humility, because God may not have anything for you to respond to tangibly from a word of criticism, or even a word of constructive criticism. But maybe his only his only point in us hearing it is to humble us. And even if the person was completely wrong, completely off base, maybe even ungodly, my friend wasn't a godly, but if someone brings a word to you, in your people pleasing ways that that's way off base, well, did it humble me? It probably did. So that means the Lord used it and he any allowed it. But anyway, my friend, I had to really kind of like, like I am right now in real time, like process, what he was saying, and how do I humbly receive this as a compliment, but also as something that's, he's tried to direct me a different way. And so I do like, at at 54 years old, I have to I'm still at that place of going okay, Lord, what, what is the lesson for me here? A? And then what is my response? And so always, always, especially in worship, where everybody in their mama has an opinion? Yes. So you really just have to just completely die to that. Do your best to be in tune with the voice of the Lord and where he's calling you to lead?

Andy Brennan: 29:06

So this is a related question. And we've talked about this previously on the podcast, a number of times, this tension that exists in ministry when we're trying to do our part, but we also try to leave room for the Lord to do what he wants to do, kind of getting out of our own ways. I'm wondering if that happens to you? And like, what are your first clues? If you sense that you are becoming a little too self dependent or self reliant on making things come together? If this happens, is it something that you feel physically, like maybe a tightness in the chest or a tension in the neck or something or is it like some kind of second guessing or negativity or discouragement or something else?

travis cottrell: 29:50

That's a good question. I think the first thing the first thing that comes to mind when you ask that Andy is the first thing I noticed myself is that I've stopped Thinking about people. Okay? If I am able to summon up enough self awareness to go, am I edgy? Am I on edge? Am I? Am I still people motivated. And that's happened to me recently where I just found maybe it was a physical feeling or something. But I just found that I was just like, edgy and kind of barky, you know, barking and I just realized that I had just kind of drifted away from the humility in the, in the moment by moment. And I think a lot of times, you know, we get so focused on our work for the Lord, our work for the Lord, our work for the Lord, this is for the Lord. Well, it's for his people. My calling is for his people. And if his people can't worship, with what I put on their plate, then I'm missing the call. Yes, my worship is for the Lord. But on Sunday morning, my worship is for people. It's to help people connect. So I have to be so filled up with my in my own personal worship, that yes, they need to see me worshiping and yes, we have to worship together. But that moment is them. And so the decisions that I make have to be people motivated. And so sometimes I do feel like when I drift away from that, it feels kind of this crankiness in this weirdness that I really do have to reset and remind myself that my calling is people

Andy Brennan: 31:36

driven. I think that crosses over nicely to people that are fundraising or just in ministry, like, also motivated by people.

Heather Winchell: 31:45

Well, yeah, and if you think about it, like, definitely two sets, right, or actually multiple sets, but definitely motivated by the people that they like, have vision for ministry to in whatever context, they're, they're moving towards ministry, and, but then also very much the people that they're sitting down with and inviting into partnership, because like Travis was saying earlier, the thing he kept thinking when he was talking to that mom, was no thank you, like, Thank you for kind of saving my perspective from like, you know, 20 bucks on the Target dollar bin when this could like feed your child for I mean, I don't know, a month, several months or something. And so I think I really love this emphasis that you've identified Travis on, like the Lord's, like working for the Lord's people and like, what it is, His purpose is for his people and equipping them. And so I guess along with that, I'm wondering if you have any proactive habits are rhythms that kind of like help you keep that perspective? Like maybe looking at the crowd and praying intentionally before you step on stage? Or even as you're preparing for an event or as your songwriting like, are there things that kind of ground you in thinking about the people that you're ministering to?

travis cottrell: 33:02

I try to lead so as an example. I know my church has a choir. Cool. Yeah. I know. I say that. Like it's an anomaly because it kind of is, is yes. And we don't we don't sing every Sunday. We sing a couple of times a month, but I have about 200 Wow, choir and, and coming here. Well, and any choir that I've led in the past, I'm kind of like a choir guy, and I love choir. But I don't I don't believe in a choir in a worship setting. To have a performative mindset. Yeah. I, I try to reframe and recalibrate everybody's paradigm to be that of a worship leading choir. And part of that to answer your question is, one thing I do I tell my choir to do, and I do this myself consider my role as a worship leader, as that of an intercessory role. And so what I mean by that is, every Sunday, I am aware that I have a seat where I can see every face in the room. And the choir has a seat where they can see every face in the room. And God has the ability to give us the ability to see in the Spirit. And I asked God and I asked our choir every Sunday morning, to look at that crowd and look for faces and ask God who to pray for. And so when they're up there, there, their first goal is not to sing perfectly. Their first goal is to be that of an intercessory choir. So we are we keep the mindset of all the time going. Who would you have me pray for? I'm gonna pray for that guy. When we sing right there. I know. I know his name. His name is Steve, his wife is such and such. And I don't even know what he needs today, but I'm going to pray for him. And so you know, that may sound a little weird, but I believe God has that that ability to call us up Pray, are things that we see and can even give us an idea of how to direct our prayers. And that's how I, I'm trying to train my choir to approach their call that keeps it fresh every Sunday that keeps the pressure off it being performative. And that keeps them coming back for more. I honestly think because I do believe people are looking for. They're looking for things that matter. And they're looking to be a part of things that matter, rather than just feeding our own ego by being a great choir. Sure. Nice. That makes sense. Yeah.

Heather Winchell: 35:34

Oh, yeah. Well, I think that there's just such power in that awareness to what's happening around you. And that willingness to kind of like lean into prayer. That strikes me because this past Sunday after church, we were wrangling our crew. You know, I mentioned for boys, it's a lot of wrangling anywhere, a lot of wrangling. Yeah. But we were like wrangling our crew to the minivan because, yes, we have that. And, and I noticed a gal that had just had a baby. And as I was like, kind of rejoicing internally, like, oh, wow, she had her baby, there was a woman right behind her that was just weeping. And I wasn't in a position to go over to the woman. But I just felt the Spirit saying pray for her, you know. And so it was just an invitation in that moment that I think like you said, the spirit shows up and gives us even though we don't know, people, we don't know what's going on. But it's just an invitation to see and respond.

Andy Brennan: 36:27

And could the Lord in your donor onboarding process be encouraging you to pray for these people in in new ways and fresh ways will absolutely been giving you insight into their lives that you didn't have before?

Heather Winchell: 36:39

Yeah, well, and okay, so I kind of want to go back a little bit to something Travis said before about comments people make, and what if that's only to make you humble? I thought about a recent episode we did on when people aren't supportive. And we talked with some, some workers that their family just said some really hard things to them, when they were mobilizing into their ministry, some really, really negative things. And it's just I thought I did want to call out, it's hard to know what to do with those comments. But I think what you said, Travis is such an invitation, you know, Can I Can I just receive this as an as a reminder from the Lord, to let me be humbled? Even if these things aren't true? What could the Lord have for my own formation or good in that, and then also with that, just the mindfulness to pray for those people, you know, to see and to, to have a mind bent towards prayer. So kind of connecting all those ideas been good? Yeah,

travis cottrell: 37:32

that's really good. But what an awareness and a gift, these people just immeasurable what they would bring to those lives, if they would come in partnership with it. And so it's just a matter of opening, helping people's eyes be open to that, that the gift of partnering is so great for the giver. And that's a biblical concept. It's a simple biblical concept is so simple, you know, we teach our kids that from, you know, their earliest days, it's better to give than to receive, but it really, really is true. That was something I was thinking when I was, you know, that that sweet mom in Haiti, she could have never, ever, ever understood that. Even if I spoke her language in the best possible way. I don't think she could have ever because her paradigm of life was so completely different than mine, her experiences and her contact privilege or lack thereof, yeah, her context. And so being able to use sensitivity and generosity and authenticity, to meet people in that moment of, oh, you know, can I humbly say you need this in your life has been really effective for me.

Andy Brennan: 38:53

So let's just give some space to keep it again, wide open. Some of the things that you've learned, since you've been in this role, generosity, authenticity, sensitivity to the spirit, anything else that you feel like the Lord has taught you? Over the 30? Some years?

travis cottrell: 39:12

Yeah. Oh, you know, I say this to my kids. You know, I have my kids are 2623 20 something that I loved my parents, they were great Christian parents and I, I had the simple upbringing in rural North Carolina. I wouldn't trade it for anything. But my parents were were old. They were older when I was born. They were 45 and 40. And they had an 18 year old when I was 18, and a 14 a 12 year old when I was born. So you know, by the time I was 10 years old, I had just armfuls of nieces and nephews because my siblings are so mature. So in a lot of ways, I was raised by Grant grandparents, my parents were in grandparent mode, and it was fine. It's not a complaint. I love it. But I will say that I was Race and that generation where the only thing I ever saw growing up was, Well, whenever you get to your adulthood, whether it's right out of high school or right out of college, you decide what is your thing, and you do it till you die. And, and, you know, obviously we live in such a different world. No, no one would really ever think that but I, I, I try to express to my kids and something that the Lord has taught me and even at the age of 50 years old, I'm just reminding myself that we are not stepping in concrete, with our what we're doing with our calling, with our money with anything. Now, there are marriages, or that's a lifelong covenant, that when we have children, it's a lifelong, it's a lifelong partnership. And of course, our calling with the Lord is lifelong, but where we live, always on the table, how we spend our money, always on the table, where are we fellowship and community and church, it's always on the table, those things are on the table and, and just to be willing to hear the Lord to if he asks you to change if you have that understanding. Be ready, even if it's how you spend your money, how you invest your money, how much you think you need in your life, but how, how could you try to outgive God, always have everything on the table and be really light footed with your life so that when He calls you to do something that's drastic, dramatic and fashion, or completely extravagant and giving, that you're ready to do it, because you haven't bought into the idea that you're standing in concrete. because aside from your family, and your relationship with Jesus, you never are ever, and that's a that's just something like hold your life loosely. Hold your life loosely before the Lord.

Andy Brennan: 41:50

So be careful with the anchors you put down. Right. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 41:55

I really love the way you articulated that. And I know you've written some books, I'm curious if that is something you've written too, at this point.

travis cottrell: 42:04

You know, the, the only book I wrote was more than a decade ago. And I do remember that I wrote it in the middle of a transition in my life, where God called us out of Nashville to move to another town two hours away. He called me to work in a church and I never wanted to work at a church. And, you know, I, I never saw myself as a church. Pastor, I, I had a pastoral as pastoral skills. And I was using those in ministry, but I just never thought I was going to stare at the same group of people every Sunday morning. I just never thought I just never thought now I love it so much. Yeah. But back then, when I was writing that book was I was in the middle of that calling. And it was a lot of wrestling, my wife and I just wrestling with God figuring it out. Because we had bought our forever house, we had three kids, I'd had my most successful career to date with a record that I just released and hear God was calling us to leave Nashville. And I came to this chapter that I ended up writing that just said, there's always something next with God. There's always something next. And so I don't know the theology on if he really cares about what we want, you know, I know that he knows what's best. And he knows what will bring Jesus glory. And sometimes we don't know that we just have to trust Him. And so holding our lives loosely is something that as I get older and take a walk with my kids through, you know, the difficulty of being young adults in this generation, it's on the forefront of my mind, just hold it loosely, loosely.

Heather Winchell: 43:44

Yeah. Even in things where you kind of want there to be concrete around your feet, right. Like you said, you built your forever home. I know that that is something a lot of people feel like, Oh, I've created this space. I've designed this space. Finally, I kind of want concrete around my feet

travis cottrell: 43:58

here. And God can use it like, totally you can use me right here. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 44:03

yeah, but oh man, I just the I loved the way you articulated that, that be light footed with your life. I think that's gonna really stick with me. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know that we're drawing nearer to the end of our time. And I just definitely want to respect your time, by way of encouragement. What else would you want to say to our listeners as they persevere in support based ministry? Well,

travis cottrell: 44:24

I would just encourage people to remember their first love of Jesus and and what what were those markers that got you to where you are now and speak out of that the passion for those things? And don't worry about being slick and don't worry about being impressive. Nobody cares anymore. I I think, you know, one of the benefits of this generation is that they know baloney when they see it, yeah. And and we've had a lot of baloney in the church, right? And so I just would encourage Everybody that, you know, go back to your first love and the passion that got you there. And you have everything you need and Christ to do what you're called to do. You have it all within you in Christ, and Christ you have everything you need. And you there may be mountains of bills or, or expectations that are in front of you, that you have everything you need to get to where you're going in Christ. And just be mindful of that first love that got you there and speak to those passions. And every step will, will be there before you. You know, I was a kid when Amy Grant wrote the song by word is a lamp to my feet, and a light into my path. And that's right out of Psalm 119. And I love how that psalm reads that. He's a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. But it doesn't say he lights up the entire journey in front of us. But there's a lamp on our feet. And so that means we can take the next step. And then when we have that next step, then there's a lamp to our feet. And we can see the next step. And so just trust that lamp, even if it's just one step at a time, and he will not fail you.

Andy Brennan: 46:15

It's awesome. Yeah, that is. Thanks, Travis. That was fantastic. I think the thing that stood out to me the most was fundraiser, missionary, ask yourself the question. Are you helping your donor to worship? What does that look like? Communicating the right stories, being intentional not getting like mired in even as good as your ministry is not getting stuck in that and neglecting them. So thank you, Travis. Our final question is suddenly you have $10,000 And you have to give it away today. Who or what would you give it to?

travis cottrell: 46:53

If I had$10,000 to give away today, I would probably give it to people loving Nashville. That's an organization that I believe to be so authentically helping their neighbors here in my hometown. I've been so overcharged my whole life that had this mindset of missions around the world, which I do appreciate and I love Yes, but I've really tried to be in tune to needs around me have a lot of friends that are highly involved with people loving Nashville, I probably that'd probably be one of the places I would look to invest.

Heather Winchell: 47:26

Very cool. So the organization is called people loving Nashville. Yes. Cool. I like it. Yeah, well, like Andy said, Thank you so much for your time. This was a real honor and just really encouraged by the conversation.

travis cottrell: 47:41

Thank you so much for having me. I loved it. Love being with you guys.

Andy Brennan: 47:48

It's not about the money is presented by pro Visio fundraising solutions for Visio equips support base workers with flexible training, practical resources and one on one coaching. Find out more at pro Visio fundraising.com.