27. Carolyn Kellam on Domestic Support Raising

Most support concepts are applicable no matter where you serve, but there can be unique factors when raising support for domestic ministry. We are joined in this episode by Carolyn Kellam of the Navigators. Carolyn currently serves as the Manager of Staff Funding and is responsible for the training for all Nav staff. She also helps lead the IEdge program.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Ministry partners are like your teeth. If you take care of them, they'll last you a lifetime. And it can sometimes feel like Man, there's a lot to manage in relationships. But yeah, I just am so convinced of the importance of that care for ministry partners in communication in letting my needs be known, but also allowing them to express their needs. To me. It's just been such a privilege to get to pray with my ministry partners, pray for them, get to hear what's happening in their life has been such a gift to my heart.

Heather Winchell: 0:41

Welcome to it's not about the money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather, and together with my co host, Andy, we look beyond the Quick Tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry, fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it, this is the place for you.

Andy Brennan: 1:03

Welcome back, everybody on this podcast, because our backgrounds are primarily in overseas ministry. It's easy for Heather and I to think in terms of vision, casting, and mobilization for a global context. However, it goes without saying that many of our listeners are working in and fundraising for domestic ministries. Principally, there is a lot of crossover, and many fundraising skills that do translate across domains. But it makes sense to take time to examine some of the distinct challenges and advantages of domestic fundraising. We'll be talking about support development in the US today. So if you're listening from beyond our borders, there is a chance the specifics may not strictly apply. Shout out to our global listeners. There may be a need to contextualize but presumably, a broader takeaways will fit within your home country as well. Other Would you please do the honors of introducing our guest today?

Heather Winchell: 2:07

Absolutely, Andy. So today to speak to this very important topic we have with us, Carolyn Kellum we crossed paths with Carolyn at the fundraisers conference last spring. And she works with the navigators out of Denver, Colorado as their manager of staff fundraising. So before this, she actually lived and worked in Boulder. For those of you that don't know, Boulder is a college town, home of the University of Colorado Boulder. And it is really not the most affordable place to live. If you follow college football. This is where Deion Sanders coaches. So not only is she responsible for her own living and ministry expenses, but she also bears the responsibility of helping all Navigator staff in their funding a tall order. So Carolyn, what else do we need to know about you or your role?

Unknown: 2:58

Yeah, so in addition to this, I actually also sit on the leadership team for our AI Edge program, which is a two year commitment overseas. But kind of at the heart of all of this, one of my favorite things in the world is just helping equip people helping to train them. In both these roles. I love emphasizing and talking about our Father who wants to be gracious to us, whites in us and is our provider in a number of different ways.

Heather Winchell: 3:29

Very cool. And how long have you been working in support based work?

Unknown: 3:34

Yeah, so I have been support raising for almost eight years. And then I've been on our ministry of partner development team for just over two years.

Heather Winchell: 3:46

Okay, wonderful. Yeah.

Andy Brennan: 3:49

So I'm curious to start us off here. Carolyn, what did your initial launch into support raising look like? Did you receive training? What was your view on support raising as you were getting started? And I'm curious to know how that has possibly evolved?

Unknown: 4:04

Yeah, so the biggest shift that's kind of happened when I came on staff with the navigators, I really viewed fundraising, initially as kind of this means to an end, like it's fine to do. But it's just so that I can get to actually doing my ministry on campus. I started collegiate ministry. And when I first came on staff, my parents weren't super excited about the idea, primarily because of the fundraising aspect. Sounds familiar? Yeah, I think it's a pretty common experience. And I really don't fault them for it. You know, it just was foreign and unfamiliar to them. But I think all those things together really made me feel like I wouldn't have probably used the words necessary evil, but in essence, that's kind of how I viewed it of it's just this obstacle. To overcome so I can get to real ministry. Today, I would say that support raising is one of the greatest joys and privileges we get to experience as gospel workers. And even my parents to the Lord has just done so much in their hearts. And they're really eager about my fundraising process being on my team, helping others to know about it, too. So I'm really grateful for that. Yeah, I just love that the Lord invites us into partnership with other people that we don't have to go at it alone. My initial launch into support raising, I did receive training, the navigators have a really great training. And I was so thankful to go through that with my class of people who came on staff at the same time with me, some of my best friends in the world I met during our funding school together. Cool. We've just stayed in touch during our careers. Very cool.

Heather Winchell: 6:02

We had opportunity to have Scott Morton on the show last season, I think it was. And it was a really wonderful conversation, and I am pretty sure that much of the training you guys have kind of corresponds with the resources that Scott has provided. Is that correct? Yeah,

Unknown: 6:18

absolutely. Scott laid so much of the foundation for what the navigators do in support raising right now. And I'm so thankful to get to stand on the shoulders of giants like Scott. Yeah, absolutely.

Heather Winchell: 6:31

You know, another thought that came to mind as you were just kind of sharing with us a little bit about your journey is, so I'm reading a lot in the Old Testament right now, specifically in the Torah. So specifically, like Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and all that jazz.

Andy Brennan: 6:46

Did you also just start a Bible reading plan? No, actually

Heather Winchell: 6:50

preparing for a women's retreat. So it's just got me in those books, but but it just occurs to me. So the wilderness, like I feel like the people of God would have been like, Yeah, I'd rather skip the wilderness and just kind of go to the Promised Land, right? Like the wilderness seemed like, I don't know something. It's like, Yeah, I'd like to sidestep that maybe the necessary evil or whatever. But it's like, Man, how would they have been formed for the promised land? Had they not had the wilderness had they not had time after time after time of God, showing himself to be a creative provider? Manna water from Iraq, deliverance through a sea? I mean, it's just incredible. And so I don't know, I just I think it's, I feel like throughout time, there's these experiences that feel like we can start to view them as the necessary evil. But then on the other side, we're like, oh, wow, actually, that was a really important part of my formation and preparation, and a very unique way that God showed up. So I don't know. It just seems applicable.

Andy Brennan: 7:51

What's What's that old adage? It took a while to get the Israelites out of Egypt, but even longer to get Egypt out of the Israelites. Oh,

Heather Winchell: 8:00

I haven't heard that. But yeah, interesting.

Andy Brennan: 8:02

Yeah. So maybe there's something about that. And in the process, the length that it takes us to get kind of formed and fundraised and

Heather Winchell: 8:10

reshaped? Yeah, maybe so. But anyways, that was just something that that came to mind as you were talking about that, because I think a lot of people view it. Not. I mean, maybe not in those words, but just kind of view as like the means to the end, but don't see necessarily the beauty until they're kind of like looking back at it. Yeah. So from your perspective and experience, what do you think are some unique benefits, and maybe unique challenges in raising funds for domestic ministry?

Unknown: 8:40

I think one of the greatest challenges in raising support for domestic ministry is in a, especially in the United States, I think, for a long time, Christians have kind of been primed for international giving. And viewing missions is just something that happens outside of the US. It's like all of those people need Jesus, but we're set here hmm. And so I think that can be a real challenge is helping to reframe domestic work as also just as important mission work happening here around us. On the flip side, I think one of the greatest benefits is just getting to have a team and to be even closer related to them in proximity, then when you support overseas. Absolutely, yeah. Obviously, that's not always the case. I think there's certainly exceptions to that. But I love getting to have a team. I think that is one of the greatest privileges in ministry is knowing I'm not alone in it. And sometimes they think about this picture of getting to heaven, right? So I have, I have my ministry, and I have all this whole team supporters who are with me in my ministry, and sometimes they think about getting to heaven. And these supporters who have helped make it possible for me to minister to people on campus or overseas or whatever the context has been getting to meet people who have talked about in my newsletters or email updates. Sometimes I just think about that reunion. And seven that's really mystifying to me. And I don't want to speculate what all it will look like. But when I allow myself to kind of run with this idea, I think of some of my ministry partners, like Mark and Cindy or Georgia, getting to me. One semester on campus in Boulder, I had a Bible study with five different Emily's all spelled five different

Heather Winchell: 10:50

ways. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I love that. So

Unknown: 10:53

you think about like Mark and Cindy or Georgia, getting to meet one of the Emily's and being like, your Emily and then being like your Georgia. Like, I know who Jesus is because you got to invest in Carolyn's ministry. And she got to share the gospel with me. And so I met Jesus on campus. And it's just fun for me to imagine what some of those reunions will look like. I think some gospel workers who raise support all get to experience that. But I love that being domestic, I have more opportunities than overseas staff sometimes to get to meet with them for coffee or to send them a note because postage is a bit cheaper, more opportunities to interact with my partners in ministry.

Heather Winchell: 11:44

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm curious with with that proximity, does it ever feel like a tension you have to navigate because you are, you know, physically in proximity to people, but in so maybe there's an expectation there that there will be maybe more presence or more meetings? And do you ever have to navigate that? Or has that worked out pretty well for you or more

Andy Brennan: 12:02

demands on you? Maybe, maybe?

Heather Winchell: 12:05

Or expectations? Yeah, yeah.

Unknown: 12:08

Yeah, I definitely think so. Especially in my earliest years of ministry, I think I felt like, I really had to prove myself and what I was doing to those who were investing in my ministry, especially financially. And again, I don't know that that feels exclusive to domestic laborers. But I think it can really feel like, especially if I'm visiting a church, where I know, there's a broad base of supporters, something like that, it can feel like there's a real tension there of like, and I really need to engage, I need to make sure they're up to date on what's happening in my ministry, that they feel like they have what they need to feel like this is a worthy investment. Yeah.

Andy Brennan: 12:55

So Carolyn, you've been raising funds for yourself for over eight years? Almost eight, almost eight years. Okay. I'm curious to know, what are some some of the key strategies that you've picked up? Or developed over the years? And then how have you actually helped staff to keep their support accounts balanced? What how have you contributed to that equation?

Unknown: 13:20

Yeah. So for myself, I would say the biggest strategy I have picked up on is that communication with my ministry partners is absolutely critical. And that can happen in a number of different ways. You know, whether it's through a physical newsletter, or an email update, or just a phone call. But I've found over and over that the more I communicate, the more invested my ministry partners are in my ministry. And when I start to let communication slip, often, my ministry partner support also slips. someone on my team has this phrase, she always says, she says ministry partners are like your teeth. If you take care of them, they'll last you a lifetime. And I think it can, I mean, even talking about the demands, it can sometimes feel like Man, there's a lot to manage in relationships. But yeah, I just am so convinced of the importance of that care for ministry partners, in communication in letting my needs be known, but also allowing them to express their needs to me. She has been such a privilege to get to pray with my ministry partners, pray for them, get to hear what's happening in their life has been such a gift to my heart. So

Andy Brennan: 14:49

let's say you're sitting down in front of somebody that you're training, and it's their first time and they're like, Well, what do I What does that look like? How do I communicate? Should I just post on my Insta?

Unknown: 14:59

Yeah, Great question. I think there's a number of ways you can do this. You could probably ask 100 people and get 100 different answers to this. But my best tip for this would be figure out a healthy rhythm of communication. And this is even going into the question you asked about how I get to help staff keep their support accounts balance. Yeah. Yeah, I would say creating regular rhythms of MPD work or ministry partner development work is really critical. So in the navigators, most positions that our fundraiser most all field positions are fundraised, but most of them in the job description have the fundraising percentage, somewhere in the ballpark of 10%, of the job description. And when I first came on staff, I remember thinking like, Okay, I'm working 40 hours a week, that means I should be spending four hours per week on MPB. How do I fill these hours? What does that mean? Do I just need to be spending four hours writing a newsletter, what all goes into this, and I hadn't campus trainer, sit down with me and helped me really understand this in a way that became so much more helpful. And he said, Carolyn, it's more helpful to think about this 10% Over the span of a full year. So instead of four hours every week, that might not even be necessary in some moments. But think about okay, once a year, I probably need to dedicate a certain number of weeks or a certain amount of time to raising additional support. And then looking at that on maybe a monthly basis. It's like every month, I need to probably sit down and write a newsletter. And then a subset of that newsletter, I would say this is like my key tip would be in your newsletters, you should be telling a compelling ministry story, talk about what the Lord is doing in your midst on how the people who are partnered with you are helping to make an impact on your specific ministry. So that's been really pretty revolutionary to me to think about that 10% of my job description being spread over a whole year, instead of feeling like it's a burden that every week, I need to figure out for hours with MPD work.

Heather Winchell: 17:31

And so it sounds like within that communication is just varied, you know, peppered into in person conversations and maybe on Insta and newsletters and and really just preparing well to to keep communication going in those spaces.

Unknown: 17:47

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay, so

Heather Winchell: 17:51

here's a question for you. Okay, so if each skill in fundraising, so like communication, vision, casting follow up, you know, all those wonderful skills that we can develop, if they were like an actual tool and an actual tool belt, and you could only give your staff three tools to work with or to start with maybe what would those tools be?

Unknown: 18:13

I love this question. So I would say my three tools would be to asks in one follow up, hmm, okay. The two asks would be a financial ask, that's really specific. So something like Would you prayerfully, consider joining my team at $200 per month? That's my first ask. The second ask, or the second tool in my tool belt would be for recommendations, something that absolutely transformed my MPD a few years ago when I got training in how to do this. And it's how I've built and maintained my support team ever since. And so I asked the question every MPD, face to face appointment I have, I say, who are three to five people who would be encouraged to hear my story. I really emphasize that because they don't want people to feel like I just want them to give me their friends who can give me money, or that there's going to be this burden that I'm putting on people they're connecting me to by I really am convinced of what the Lord is doing in my own ministry. I'm convinced that the Lord has really sweet things in store for those who invest their finite riches here on Earth, that there's something good for them in heaven. And I want people to get a chance to hear about what the Lord is doing on campus or as a trained staff. I want people to have a chance to hear that. So I just asked who are three to five people who'd be encouraged to hear my story. that'd be my second tool. And then my third tool would be one follow up call. In my fundraising appointments, I always ask people, if they would prayerfully, consider giving, I just give you the example $200 per month. And then I asked for time that I could follow up with them, I don't want them to feel pressure to make a decision on the spot. And I really do believe this is a spiritual thing that they need to be taking to the Lord. And so I want them to do that. So I usually asked to follow up two to three days after I meet with them, I set a time to make sure they're going to be free. And then I follow up with them. And if I'm really honest with you, that is the hardest part of fundraising work for me is making the follow up call. I still get nervous about most aspects of fundraising. But that is the part that makes me the most nervous. It's one of the most important tools, I think, missionary or anyone raising support and develop.

Heather Winchell: 21:08

Great. Yeah, that's great. Because I think the reality is that time gets away from people. And they might have the intention to follow up with you or to let you know, the conversation they've had or the decision they've come to or whatever. But your urgency is not there urgency, and other things come up. And you know, maybe their kid breaks an arm or maybe, you know, they all come down with COVID. Like whatever it might be, I think that it's so helpful to have that follow up call. Because I think it shows intentionality, I think it shows care. And practically your urgency is not their urgency. And so they might really like have a heart to give and just forget, or you know, it might just get on the to do list pushed down and down. In your

Andy Brennan: 21:53

experience. Do most people really need that time. I mean, how many people come to a support meeting with a number in a yes, already in hand? It

Unknown: 22:02

has certainly happened. But I would say at least in my experience, most people do need some time to consider and ask the Lord. Or sometimes if they do come with a number, I've had it where people come up, like, I'm gonna get $50 a month. And then I asked for 200 a month. And they're like, Man, I really need to take this to the Lord and pray and seek in sometimes$50 A month is what the Lord has for them. And sometimes, it's more. But I think the other thing I really love about that ask is that I can trust that the Lord is providing for me and is using them and interacting with them. So it's not just me and this person in the equation. Totally, totally.

Andy Brennan: 22:49

So real quick, Carolina. I'm curious, like how you're asking has changed from year one to year eight? You mentioned $200 a month? Did you start off asking that much? Or have you kind of worked up to that?

Unknown: 23:05

Yeah, I started by asking for $100 a month. And when I went to my first training, I'm very much a type A person. So if you tell me to do something, I'm gonna do it. But when I first training, and they told us we needed to ask for$100 a month, I would kind of wanted to throw up. I was like, there is no way I can ask people to give $100 a month. That's insane. And then to my amazement, it was something like 85% of the people I asked said yes to $100 a month. Wow. So amazing that, yeah, the Lord just obviously, the people training need knew what was possible. But also the Lord just made a way where that was possible. I switched to the $200 a month ask just two summers ago. And it was I had done this big data project for our team that summer. And the results were saying asking for $200 a month might actually be a really strategic ask. And so I decided to try it and to see what might happen. And similarly, the Lord just opened doors and an number of people started joining my team at that $200 A month mark. So people

Andy Brennan: 24:31

weren't offended. No one was offended.

Heather Winchell: 24:34

Yeah, yeah. Which is just good to point out Well, I

Andy Brennan: 24:38

think people were afraid of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't want to offend people by asking too big,

Heather Winchell: 24:42

right? Yeah. One

Unknown: 24:44

of my favorite stories about this i i get to train staff, all new staff who come into the navigators, I get to do their fundraising training. And that is one of the greatest privileges to me. I love it. It's one of my favorite things. I get to do that I always tell them this story because it's been so impactful for me. And I don't know if it's a true story or not. But I think the point of it is what really matters. So there's this story that when Alexander the Great's daughter was going to get married, Alexander the Great said to them, like go set a budget, and then tell me what you need. And we'll have this wedding. And so they went out, they set their budget, and then the fiance of, you know, Alexander, the Great's daughter, came back and was talking to Alexander the Great's right hand, man, gave him the budget. And his right hand man went back to Alexander the Great and said it, sir, they they've given you a number. Alexander the Great is like, Oh, I can't wait, tell me what it is. And the right hand man says, I can't tell you, sir. It's so offensive. It's such a large number. I just can't tell you what they've asked for. And Alexander the Great says, No, you need to tell me. So he hears the number. And then Alexander the Great says, No, you misunderstand. They've actually honored me twice, by asking for this money once because they know that I am quite wealthy, but to they believe me to be quite generous, and so they wouldn't. And I just love that I love thinking about how can we honor people twice in our ass? Obviously, we don't want to presume upon their income or their ability to give. That's not what I'm saying. But I do think we have a real ability to honor people by believing them to be generous.

Heather Winchell: 26:43

Hmm, I really love that. Yeah, I talked to

Andy Brennan: 26:46

so many people who think the opposite, who think that I'm going to offend people. But by asking too much. So I think it's really important for people who hear this to begin that process of rewiring, that, that way of thinking, I think it's really healthy. It's great. Yeah, I was also talking to a couple, just earlier this morning, who I am wading through some coaching. And they are in a unique situation where they have both been on the field in different scenarios previously. And now they're going back to the field as a married couple with two kiddos. And one of the things that he said struck me, he said, Yeah, when I was first out of college, I have a different relationship with money than I do now. And when I was first out of college, asking for $100, a month was just like that amount of money was mind boggling. But now that he's kind of lived a little bit grown up a little bit had had a full time job. He just appreciates when people come to him with a vision that he really cares about. He wants to be involved in that. And he wants to give more. So I think that's encouraged him to ask for more. The second time around.

Unknown: 27:54

Yeah, yeah, that's super encouraging.

Heather Winchell: 27:56

So Carolyn, on a scale of one to 10, how important do you find accountability to be in the support development world?

Unknown: 28:05

I would say it's like an 11. That, I think is absolutely critical. But I also think it's really important to understand that accountability kind of happens at a lot of levels, I think, during a support raising season. So I think it's important to be accountable to your heart and your emotions, and your thought patterns, I think it's important to be accountable for your spiritual state and how you're going before the Lord. And then of course, it's important to be accountable to your actual tasks of what you need to be doing in your MPB work. But I think sometimes people can just get hung up on Oh, I have to be accountable to make my phone calls or to have appointments. And I really am convinced that accountability goes deeper than that. Because if we're not accountable to our thought life, or what's happening in our heart, or on a spiritual level, odds are our to do list or the tasks that we're supposed to be doing aren't going to be done to this extent that they should be or the quality that they should be. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 29:15

I 100% agree. I just feel like you might be a person that finds yourself doing support based work, but you are a person and it's important to be aware of what's happening. You know, as you said, Be accountable to yourself, your emotions, your mindset, things like that. Do you have any practical ways that you encourage people to be accountable to themselves, whether that's like journaling or having somebody they meet with and answer questions with or

Andy Brennan: 29:44

enlisting a roommate? Yeah.

Unknown: 29:48

Yeah, I think all of those are fantastic. We encourage all of our staff when they're in a season of fundraising to have some kind of coach, whether that's through one of our program items that we offered to our staff or if it's just on their own. But that that coach would be someone who could ask, of course about their to do lists and their tasks, but also be someone who can kind of set things aside and say like, okay, just tell me, how are you doing? What's happening in your heart? How are you experiencing life right now? What are you learning in your quiet times? Things like that?

Heather Winchell: 30:27

Yeah, absolutely.

Andy Brennan: 30:28

I'm curious. Carolyn, to ask you about some of the differences that you see, or how would you approach coaching someone who is raising money for a short term trip, versus kind of like a career choice,

Unknown: 30:44

I would say, in general, if you're raising support for a short term trip, it's gonna be a lot more kind of short sighted. So the vision you're going to be casting is for a pretty limited amount of time. And that's not bad. That's actually really good, because that's what you're committing to. But I think it's really important, I would say the similarity in both of them is helping the person you're meeting with understand the vision of what you're doing. The biggest difference, I think, would be the time commitment for that. And then what follow up and communication with these ministry partners looks like, again, on the short term, it's probably going to look like a thank you note, once their gift comes in, and then a newsletter, once you've returned from your short term trip. Yeah. Whereas long term is going to be, again, it's critical to have that vision. But there's going to be a greater emphasis on your long term communication. Of course, a thank you note when the gift comes in is still going to be super important. But then updating them regularly on stories that's happening in your ministry, and helping them to understand why this investment really matters.

Andy Brennan: 32:00

What about that, in the field of accountability? Is there anything practical that you can do with accountability for short term? Yeah,

Unknown: 32:07

I think most of the time, in the short term, you're going with teammates, ways, but often, so I would say engage with your teammates, can you guys commit together to a few things can you commit, even my first short term trip I ever took, my team leader had us we're fundraising together. But she had us memorize Scripture together and long passages of Scripture, because she was like, This is what's going to help sustain us. And so that was a way we were accountable to each other. We're accountable to the Scripture, we're memorizing. We're accountable to our phone calls. We are accountable to a handful of actionable tools. But really, I would say if you're going short term really press into that gift of teammates.

Heather Winchell: 32:55

Yeah, yeah. I remember you saying that you are still really close friends with many of the people that were in your cohort from your own fundraising training. And I think that that navigators, does its training in cohorts, correct. It's not one off, but with groups of people, is that correct? Yep. That's correct. Okay. So have you ever had situations that people that you're not forming a cohort based on people entering training at the same time, but more a cohort are bringing people together? Because they just are all fundraising? Or does it always happen? Kind of at the at the front end?

Unknown: 33:32

Yeah, absolutely. This is one of my favorite things we get to do with our veteran staff in the navigators, we offer these we call them sprints in five or 10 weeks, that our staff specifically focused on fundraising for a set number of hours per week. And these Sprint's we also do in cohorts, so it could be people all across the country. We've had people participate around the world. But we've found over and over people say fundraising is one of the loneliest things you can do. So really tried to prevent that from being an obstacle. So we bring people together into cohorts of three or four people. And they could be from a number of different missions, they could be serving in a number of different states or countries. But the thing they have in common is they're all working to raise their support in this season. That

Heather Winchell: 34:32

sounds like such a fantastic idea. How encouraging and motivating, really does,

Andy Brennan: 34:37

yeah. Okay, so, Carolyn, what do you see as the top barriers and obstacles or your domestic staff and for those who work in support based ministry, in the domestic context?

Unknown: 34:51

Yeah, I mentioned this before, but I do think one of the greatest challenges in domestic work is that Americans probably Marilee are primed for missions giving being something that happens overseas. Yeah. And so then the obstacle becomes for staff, then they really have to nail their vision, if they don't have a proper vision of their work, and how the work contributes to the greater kingdom, the people they're meeting with, for sure aren't going to catch that vision. Yeah. And because they've kind of been primed for international giving, they're going to be far more likely to seek out or just give to someone who comes to them from one of those contexts instead. So yeah, I think it's I just can't emphasize this enough. But I think it's really, really critical for domestic workers, to have a clear vision of what the Lord is calling them to, and help articulate that to the people there meaning with the navigators, we love discipleship. That's one of our key heartbeats. And I think this is a way I think discipleship happens in a number of ways. But I think this is a way that we can help disciple, the capital C church, is by helping people get a proper vision for what ministry looks like, not only internationally, but also domestically.

Heather Winchell: 36:17

Yeah. Well, and I even wonder, you know, I know that navigators is such a well established mission, you know, within Well, within the world context. I know, they're not just in the States, it's not just domestic ministry. But I'm just curious, you know, and even even watching how our home culture has changed how America has changed how the church, and those that would identify as believers has changed over the past, you know, 1020 years. I'm curious whether you guys are seeing a shift at all, and people being more concerned about what's happening at home, you know, more concerned with domestic ministry and the local college campus. And if you even just ever so slightly see a shift happening, there are not quite yet.

Unknown: 37:05

Yeah, we definitely saw a big shift during COVID. I think, again, it's so funny to think about how the news or culture around us can really just prime us to give. And so in 2020, we saw a huge uptick in giving to our domestic work, especially. And I think that was at play of people were really primed to consider like men, the world's kind of falling apart. These are unprecedented times, how can I help? How can I be part of this? And so when a staff would come to them and make an appeal, for a monthly support, they were like, Yeah, of course, I'll do anything to help. Especially when there was, yeah, for example, Bible studies happening on Zoom for college students who had gotten displaced from their dorms, or were trying to figure out the meaning of life now that their college career was kind of in limbo, not sure what was going to happen. Some of that is some of it was just a peak, and is kind of sloping down now that COVID is fading out of the spotlight as much. But some of it is also sticking. And like you said, people I think are starting to get a vision of what it really means to disciple a generation, what it means to start locally and allow that work to really spread out.

Heather Winchell: 38:40

Yeah, and I man, I wish I could remember what I was reading. But I was even recently engaging some content that was just talking about how many foreign born missionaries are coming here to our culture, because of the need for even though it's a, you know, it's not an unreached people. It's certainly an unchurched, more and more Sure, yeah. And kind of like a familiarity with Christian principles, but not with the gospel. And so, goodness, I'm just so grateful for the work you guys do. And discipling people, we would really love to provide an opportunity to celebrate with you what the Lord has done. Would you be willing to share one story of His provision for you, or with those that you lead?

Unknown: 39:25

Yeah, absolutely. So the beginning of this year, January of this year, I had the chance to spend a couple of weeks in Asia to lead a training for a number of our international staff who've been on the field for a year they've committed for at least another year. So we bring them together to kind of process and reflect on what this first year has been see if there's any modifications that need to be made so they can remain healthy going into a second year. It's one of my favorite things. I get to do is be a part of that team. And it was such a privilege to get to go on this trip. But I had a substantial financial need in order to make that happen. In addition to some other trips I was going on to help train and equip our staff. So all of this was coming together at the end of 2023. And so I decided to just make a year end appeal for all of these trips in conjunction with one another. And it was a pretty large sum of money. And I was blown away, the Lord met the full amount that I needed to raise to have all these training and support trips. And then I got to travel to Asia meet with our staff from around the world. It was so encouraging to be with them, it was so encouraging to hear stories of what the Lord is doing in their lives in their host contexts. And, yeah, I just remember flying home from that and being like, wow, Lloyd, you really see me. You really longed to be gracious to me. And thanks that I get to experience your kindness towards me as a father in tangible things like this.

Heather Winchell: 41:20

Yeah, that is very cool. Andy and I talk about how we over and over hear stories of God's faithfulness, and actually like him showing up and providing in really big ways, and it just never gets old. Never does. No, it's like, on one hand, it's like, Yep, I would assume God would provide like, Yep, totally within his character. Then on the other hand, it's like, man, so cool. He did it again, like, did it in that way? Yeah. And you did it there. Yeah. Like we our guests from a few weeks ago. They were sharing about how they just really needed like a new truck. And they just got a $40,000 check in the mail to get one thing that so yeah. Yeah. I mean, like you said, He sees us, he knows what we need. And he delights in providing, you know, yeah,

Unknown: 42:09

I remember sitting at my first training as a staff as a navigator hearing stories of the Lord's provision. And I said this all the time to my class coming in together. I was like, I can't wait for us to be together again, and get to tell our own stories of how God provides. But I think there's a little voice in the back of my head that was like, but it all just be hearing your stories. Like, I know, the Lord will provide for me, but I don't know that I'll have anything crazy like this. And then, you know, three months later, I was with some friends, just telling story after story after story of these amazing things the Lord had done to provide for me, that the Lord had done to provide for them. And I still I it's like you guys said, I will never get tired of hearing that.

Heather Winchell: 43:00

Yeah. Well, I

Andy Brennan: 43:02

think we're wrapping up here, Carolyn, but I think as our podcast boldly declares, we do believe it's not about the money. So I'm wondering, are there any scriptures or biblical stories that are your go to? Or when you feel like you need perspective or grounding?

Unknown: 43:20

Yeah, I have several. One of my very favorite ones is First Timothy 517, says the elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching something the Lord just ministered to my heart so deeply in my first season of fundraising, being like, oh, Lord, am I just a beggar? Am I like less than I have this college degree, but now I'm raising support. And him really saying like, Carolyn, you're worthy of double honor, because you are preaching and teaching a new generation. So I love that I love in Luke 10 Seven, Jesus says that the worker is worthy of his wages. I love first, this is maybe a unique one, but one of my favorites is actually First Chronicles 29 The most of the chapter, but it's the temple building. And I love seeing this is my favorite part is that you're right, it's not about the money. But in this first Chronicles 29 verses one through 16. We see David kind of orchestrating with the community around him to get everything necessary in order to build the temple. And I just think that's a beautiful picture that the community would all contribute something so that there would be a space that the Lord could come and could do well, and they could meet him there. And it Don't get really caught up in thinking like, Man fundraising is this new thing? Or it's like a 20th century idea. Yeah, Surely the Lord has been had this idea of it since the beginning of time we see it in the temple. But the model is still the same, the model is still that people would all contribute, in this case to a ministry, that then as I go on campus, or as a trained staff, that's the ministry they've contributed to, but it's a space that still the Lord can dwell, and people can come and meet and interact with our living God. And I just love that. And I love again, this picture of community that we're all together in it. I have this whole team of ministry partners behind me, that are with me in prayer. They're with me in their finances. And so certainly money is a part of it, but it's not what it's all about. It's the community, it's that people would get to experience the one true living God.

Andy Brennan: 46:01

That's awesome. And even I think even before that, I'm I'm going through a Bible plan as well, the Bible in a year. So I'm also in the Pentateuch. And you think of Moses asking for donations for the tabernacle. And for all these, these new implements that they're building from scratch, right? And the fact that the people of Israel gave and gave and gave until they had to tell them to stop giving a gift over given. Oh, that's cool that even from the very beginning, like this has been a model of like the community coming together. For the purposes of God.

Unknown: 46:34

Yeah, absolutely. Love it.

Heather Winchell: 46:36

Actually, community comes together, period. But I hope it's for the purposes of God, because I even think of like when they made the idol that they worshipped when Moses was on Sinai. Yeah, they all pulled their stuff together to make that true. So I wonder if it's like a human thing to come together. But it's like, oh, man, think of what that is in the Lord's hands.

Andy Brennan: 46:58

To the good purposes? Yeah.

Heather Winchell: 47:00

Yeah. So I don't know. Just interesting. Alright, so by way of encouragement, what else would you want to say to our listeners as they persevere in support based ministry?

Unknown: 47:13

I would say that you are seeing and you're not alone in fundraising. I, I understand the challenges. You're not alone. I see you, the Lord sees you most importantly. But also, it's good and right to invite people into partnership with your ministry. It's a good thing. And it's a good invitation that you would have that

Heather Winchell: 47:39

in Are there any resources that you would recommend to our listeners?

Unknown: 47:42

Yeah, I'm sure many of these have been mentioned before. But the God asked by Steve Shadrach was revolutionary to me, in my support raising when I read that funding, your ministry by Scott Morton is a fabulous resource, like everything you would need. And then I also really love the spirituality of fundraising.

Heather Winchell: 48:07

Yeah, well, awesome. Well, thank you again, so much for your time. This has really been a lot of fun. Andy, do you want to? Yes. Okay.

Andy Brennan: 48:14

Yes. Carolyn, we have one question that we asked everybody to kind of put you on the spot here. And suddenly you have $10,000. And you got to give it away today? Who are what do you give it to?

Unknown: 48:28

Yeah, I would give it to someone in the 1040 window, someone serving there. I studied abroad in the Middle East. So I have a huge harm for Middle Eastern missions, and that that region would come to know and love the true and living God. I if it was possible to find specific disciplemaking communities where that was happening. I would love to invest it there. But yeah, I just think the Lord is really doing something special among people in that region. And I'd love to give there if I could, yeah,

Heather Winchell: 49:07

to be part of that.

Andy Brennan: 49:08

And how cool that even in our domestic campus ministries, we have people coming from all over the 1040 window to our universities. Absolutely.

Unknown: 49:17

Yeah, it's fantastic. It's such an incredible opportunity. And I always tell everyone, I'm like if you have a chance connect with international students, invite them over for a meal. Mm hmm.

Andy Brennan: 49:30

And what I mean, even at LifeGroup, this past Sunday, this this topic came up about how people of other cultures are often much more open to discussing religion. They get there doesn't that taboo subject that it is here in America? Interesting.

Heather Winchell: 49:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown: 49:50

Yeah, absolutely. I think especially if you approach it with a learner's heart of wanting to hear from them also what they believe. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 49:57

yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for your time. We are really really grateful for this conversation. Thank

Unknown: 50:06

you have a great rest of your day Great to be with you.

Heather Winchell: 50:09

Yeah you too

Andy Brennan: 50:13

it's not about the money is presented by poor Vizio fundraising solutions for Vizio equipped support base workers with flexible training, practical resources and one on one coaching. Find out more at pro Visio fundraising.com