It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

29. Amy Young on Your Humanity in Fundraising

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 3 • Episode 29

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In this episode, Heather and Andy dive into a profound discussion with Amy Young, founder of Global Trellis and co-founder of Velvet Ashes. Amy shares her extensive experience in support-based ministry, spanning nearly three decades, and her insights into honoring humanity in the fundraising process.
From the challenges of maintaining personal well-being while serving abroad to the nuances of navigating supporter relationships, this episode explores the complex realities of ministry work. Amy emphasizes the importance of acknowledging our human needs and incorporating them into our fundraising efforts. She also discusses the results of a recent Global Trellis survey, revealing the hidden struggles of cross-cultural workers and the gap between senders and goers.
Join us as we uncover the significance of embracing our humanity, the value of vulnerability, and the necessity of creating margin in our lives to sustain long-term ministry work. Whether you're just starting out or have been in support-based ministry for years, this conversation offers valuable insights and practical advice for thriving in your fundraising journey.

Global Trellis
Velvet Ashes
Amy's Books

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Unknown:

We associate our humanity with brokenness. And I'm like, we were human, before brokenness entered the picture. And so sometimes Being human means I'm going to hit it out of the ballpark. I'm going to make a presentation. And it's going to really move people because I did a good job and the Holy Spirit was at work like I handled my part well, and so all of that it does come back so much to our mindset is to be human doesn't just mean to be flawed.

Heather Winchell:

Welcome to it's not about the money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather, and together with my co host, Andy, we look beyond the Quick Tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it. This is the place for you. What if exhaustion, creeping bitterness, and stagnant personal skills and cross cultural workers were replaced with refreshment, contentment and growth, this can be your reality. Life on the field is stressful and too often cross cultural workers are under resourced for the realities that they face. Global trellis helps cross cultural workers flourish through ongoing equipping and development. You need a place for your soul to breathe your head to be engaged in your heart to stay tender.

Andy Brennan:

Thanks, Heather. These words were taken directly from the global trellis website and we share them with you today. Because they capture the heart and passion of today's guest, Amy Young, global trellis has focused primarily on missionary serving abroad, but the concepts we'll discuss today will certainly apply to ministry workers serving in any field, foreign or domestic. Heather, would you tell us a little more about Amy,

Heather Winchell:

it would be my privilege. So today we are hosting the lovely Amy Young on our show. She is the founder of global trellis as well as the co founder of velvet ashes. Both of these spaces push into the care, equipping and formation of ministry workers. She is also the author of several books, which we will link in our show notes. And Amy spent just shy of two decades and oversea support based work before returning to the states and continuing in domestic ministry. Amy, what else do we need to know about you as we enter into this conversation?

Unknown:

Mostly you need to know I love to have fun. So I can't wait for this conversation. Oh,

Heather Winchell:

yeah. Good. Good, good. Shot, bringing the fun bringing the fun. Okay, so I guess to get us started, could you share with us a little of your own story how you entered into support based ministry? And what your fundraising experience was like?

Unknown:

I would love to. It's a little shocking to me. I've been on full time support. I'm still on full time support since 1995. Wow, probably I know. I know. And probably like many of you listening to this. You thought you might be fundraising for a certain amount of time. I thought it was fundraising for two years. So it didn't feel overwhelming. Or I thought it's only two years, I can do this. Yeah. The Lord was gracious to not say haha, this is going to be your new path to finances forever, forever and ever. So that is just kind of how I got into it was I went with an organization. And ironically, they were asking for a one year commitment. But God had asked me to make a two year commitment. So I made a two year commitment, which was surprising. When my mom found out it was technically a one year commitment. She's like, I did not know that I'm like, well, because God asked me to make a two year commitment. And so I was raising funds as a single, young single person without a lot of other obligations. And I would just say, again, when you think it's two years, and you're young, and you don't really think bad things are gonna happen to you like the Lord's indestructible, your your two things when you think you're doing the Lord's work, because you are and two, you're young and kind of foolish. So the irony is in my second year, I almost died. I guess. I know. I didn't mean I wish I wish everyone listening to this could have just seen we're on Zoom. As we're recording this. We can see each other Heather and Andy's face. They were like whoa, I didn't see that coming. Yeah, neither did I. Yeah, neither did I. So long story short, I got bacterial meningitis. Oh, went into a coma. And my parents got a call at 130 in the morning. Basically, my teammates, dad was a doctor. And so she kind of described over the phone my symptoms. He said, This is not good. This is actually really bad. And I feel morally obligated to call Amy's parents because I'm pretty sure she has bacterial meningitis, and she's gonna die and I just feel her parents should know this. So unbeknownst to my parents, I get a call at 130 from my teammates, dad goes through all of this And really that the next phone call will be that Amy has died. Good grief. Well, hello, I'm talking to you. So I did not die. Yeah. I praise the Lord. Thanks, brace God. But I did have a long recovery in front of me. And they needed to be they were trying to decide whether to medivac me out of my country of service to area with better hospital. Yeah, yeah. And it was, I think that at the time, the price tag was $40,000. And I had not paid $200 for medical evacuation insurance. Because I was young, and I'm like, I'm not gonna need this. And so my parents did assure me had I actually needed to be medically back, they would have come up with the money. But they did at a at the appropriate time. Say, honey, I didn't you get the medical evacuation. And I can remember sitting in my training, we were doing training in California, going over all of the things, all of the things and it just coming off a season of fundraising, it just felt like 200 more dollars, I just didn't want to do it. And so I was like, well, and again, as I said, I was in my 20s I just didn't, it didn't occur to me that actual medical things can happen happen to anyone, and not just to certain, quote unquote, older people.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, man that just brings brings to mind. So we have an upcoming episode on like a scarcity mindset. And that just really triggers that for me. Yeah, man. Good point. Yeah, that that's the kind of decision you make from a scarcity mindset. And you know, thinking that $200 is kind of scary to

Andy Brennan:

bank. Right? Yeah.

Unknown:

Scarcity and ignorance. So I just want to encourage everyone. Yeah.

Andy Brennan:

Follow the recommendations of your Sandberg follow

Unknown:

the recommendations you're sending organization? Well, I just love

Andy Brennan:

that you decided to go for two years, even though the commitment was formally for one, because I feel like it's just so hard to really get a full feel for a place even in one year. Yes. There's just so much that you learn, and you just change and even figure out how to do things and you become more fluent. Even just culturally, it makes a big difference. Yeah,

Heather Winchell:

yeah, absolutely. Wow, that was certainly a fun start to the conversation. So I know I learned so much.

Andy Brennan:

So given your experiences and your areas of competence there really I think we're so many directions, we could have taken this conversation. But we've decided to talk through what it looks like to honor your humanity in fundraising. So in landing on this focus in our time today, you mentioned that global trellis recently conducted a survey. So I'd love to talk about that. Could you share more about that with us and how it led to this topic today?

Unknown:

I am so excited to get to talk to this because it's one of those things where you're asked to do one simple thing. And you're like, sure that sounds like fun. And God absolutely opens the doors and has so much more for you there. Oh, man. Yeah, this is surprising to me. I would not have guessed four months ago that this is what we would be talking about. Last fall, I was asked to speak at a conference in February. And they presented me several different topics, one of which was, hey, what are four things that cross cultural workers are dealing with that they are not telling their senators? And I thought, Oh, well, that sounds like a very interesting topic. And I actually love to do surveys, I do surveys all the time of cross cultural workers. I work with enough that I do feel I have my finger on the pulse. And I have a good read. But I also think there's a lot. You only see what you see. And so by doing a survey, you get to hear from a broader perspective. So I did this anonymous survey in January, and people knew this survey is anonymous. The results are going to be used for a workshop in February that I'm presenting, talking about what are things that you are dealing with, that you are not telling senators. And I think because it was anonymous, and they knew it was going to be used, it wasn't just like, oh, data for the sake of like, let's just gather more information that we do nothing with, right? So 358 People took the survey, which kind of, well, it blew me away because I closed the survey the end of January, and had to have a meaningful workshop put together by February 23. Wow, like that is a lot of results. So I got a small committee, there were two other people that went that worked with me basically that whole month going through the results of the data. So that is kind of how this all came about. And even this whole topic of humanity. What came out in that survey was was eye opening. It was affirming. It was also sobering. And it really has helped me and others to now name kind of I think how, because one of the questions I was curious about is how did we adhere to a gap between the senders and the goers. Knowing both sides are very well intentioned, we're all for Christ's work in the world. We're all for being the hands and feet of Jesus. We're all for meeting suffering and offering true hope and freedom, all around the world. And yet a gap does exist often between senators and goers, and trying to figure out why does that gap exist? And a long story short, while I'm briefly let me just say, out of the 358, we only ask a couple of demographic questions to not to truly maintain people's anonymity, right. Really, the only data we gathered is are you on the field? Are you in a home office? Or working in member care? Or are you other Okay? Basically, 80% were on the field, with a world all over the world, all over the world, on the field, and about 15% are working in an organization. And then about 5% picked other. So I'm guessing who knows why. But just I think once you've been a cross cultural worker, you know, these are your people. And you want to take the surveys and you want to share your your your insight. Yeah. Which is very helpful to us to go this is, this is accurate data. This isn't 80% People in home office is guessing this was 80% of people on the field answering right then. So this survey was in January of 2024. And it was really powerful then to be able to present it and even to talk to you now to say, this isn't a survey from two years ago, five years ago, right pre pandemic 10 years ago. This is right now, currently,

Andy Brennan:

what is going on great, was taking this to him. And they had

Unknown:

a stake in this because they knew this was going to be shared. And it was a way for them to communicate with senders anonymously so they could share what's really going on. Right. Well, I think that was really powerful. Great, right.

Heather Winchell:

I'm so curious. I know. Right?

Unknown:

Okay, yeah. So so then we did say, do you think you have something that might jeopardize you being on the field if your supporters knew? And 52% said, Yes, we do. Wow. And so then our follow up question was, what is your this if they knew this, and I'm putting this in air quotes, what is your this? Yeah, and that was where just the depth, and the breadth of the answers went, because it wasn't just like one this and that also was slightly the challenge of sorting out the data. Some people would maybe write one or two things, and some people would write three long paragraphs, which was touching of how much time people put it. But in essence, we found about 11 different this is in no particular order, okay. Politics, physical health, emotional and mental health, sex and sexuality, things related to faith and theology, marriage, things related to their organization, things related to their kids, debt and finances, singleness, and then we just had a category called miscellaneous, because there were quite a few things where two or three people said it, but not enough to put like a whole category. Sure. What was stunning, though, there was not one thing that only one person said, Hmm, it was all shared. Yes. And so just that if you think people listening to this, if you think you're going through something, and you might be the only one you're not, and things that were so specific, it was stunning. Somebody else also said that Mm hmm. So that was kind of the this is that came out. So as we looked at that whole list, what was interesting, is almost everything is related to being human. Hmm. My politics, my view on politics, or your view on politics, or my supporters view on politics, physical health, emotional health, almost nothing did they say was related to the work they are doing? A few people did a few people said things like, the truth is my ministry is failing. And I'm a failure. And to some extent, like I inherited a failing ministry, which now if it really does die, how many supporters are going to follow me to another ministry, if they think quote, unquote, I killed it when I didn't kill it. I saw a few people did reference the work that they're doing. But the vast majority, far above 95%, it was referencing their humanity, which really stood out to this subcommittee and me as we went through the results. And and that was, again, where we we were just asking, how did we get here? Vendors are well intentioned, goers are well intentioned. Yeah. And yet there does feel this pressure that I have to hide or downplay part of my life part of my humanity, and to try to give language to what we were seeing. We referenced the ministry pedestal I'm sure you all have heard about the pedestal. pedestal right. Yep, yeah.

Andy Brennan:

I think like on this show, we've called it the myth of the missionary hero. Yeah,

Unknown:

exactly the same idea. Yeah. And so we said, Well, the thing is a pedestal. If you have a pedestal standing in front of you, there's a left side and a right side, which we wanted to be able to visualize what's going on the sender side that's kind of pushing people up on the pedestal, and what's going on, on the goer side, it's kind of pushing people up on the pedestal. And really, what we landed on is on the sender side, they will say things like, I couldn't do what you're doing. What you're doing is so hard. Sure, you're my hero for doing what you're doing. And so what we believe they're trying to honor the sacrifice. Yeah. And just the challenges many people in ministry are facing, but it comes out sideways. If you hear often enough, I couldn't do what you're doing. You're basically superhuman, yes, you're a hero. Then on the goer side, now switching to the oversight. Well, if people keep calling you a hero, you feel a pressure to live up to that expectation. If people keep talking about that you're superhuman. It indirectly in reinforces that you need to be superhuman, which then downplays your humanity. So as I was talking to a friend of mine, who's a Christian, but she's never served overseas about this. She absolutely resonated, she was like, Oh, my goodness, okay. Cross cultural workers are just like me, they are human. I was glad that she was resonating with the humanity. She's like, Yeah, I worry about my kids mental health, too. I feel the pressure of finances. Yeah. But something in me recoiled. And I'm like, they're not just like you, you don't get it. If your kid is really struggling with emotional health, yeah, to the point that you feel you need to move like that you cannot get help where you are. You're gonna lose your home, you're gonna have to move away from your home, your community, your job. If you have to relocate back to your passport country, can you even find housing? Can you get a job, all of this, we're like, the stakes are so different,

Andy Brennan:

same struggles, different environment, same struggles, different environments.

Unknown:

So we landed on this, what seems to be pushing on the humanity is that we are humans, but that the stakes can be very can be higher when you're on the field. And so on the on the sender side to understand the stakes, what is at stake or across cultural worker, when part of their humanity does come into play. And on the on the go or side for them to realize, yes, the stakes are very high, but we don't want the stakes to be in the driver's seat. We want your humanity to be as equally involved in the discussion as the stakes, the stakes shouldn't be higher than your humanity, they both need to be at play in the discussion. So that's some of what we were coming about. Which is why then, when you guys wondered what I'd like to talk about related to fundraising, and support raising, I really would love to help all of us continue to lean into this conversation, what does it mean to be human to have human needs? And then the financial side that goes with that? So that's just what drew me to this conversation. Yeah, yeah,

Heather Winchell:

we always talk about how fundraising is part of your formation, and your humanity is a big part of that. That's

Andy Brennan:

good. And I think what stood out to me was that all these ideas were shared. Nobody was coming up with like their own things. But I think the enemy really thrives when we're in isolation. And we think that it's just our problem. And we compare ourselves to everybody else that we're witnessing, from the outside, maybe other missionaries, even when we say Look how fast they got funded, or whatever it is, but we don't see what they had to go through and their unique dynamics and that the Lord maybe put them through a very formative season as well. Yeah.

Heather Winchell:

Well, I think in general, you know, I've only ever been part of the American church to a great extent so I'll just speak about the American church but I think there's just so much room for for the church to to have more capacity and tolerance for the messy that happens in people's lives because I feel like there very much is a need I mean, even in the states and need to present in a certain way to present as though you have it together. I can your Instagram self. Yeah. Or even just, you know, cultural things around well, we don't talk about those things. And that's not for polite society, whatever. There's all sorts of formation over time that has left us here, right? How much more for people like you said that are? It's not just a reflection on on how people view them to show up messy but it's a reflection on their livelihood or, or people can make different choices about investing in their messy right. And so that just feels like, I don't know, something that's

Andy Brennan:

it is significant to think like, like half of the people, right? At least half of the people said, if people knew about this area of my life, they would they would cut. They would bail on me. Yeah,

Heather Winchell:

yeah. And I also wonder, again, kind of thinking about the formation that has happened in our culture specifically, I wonder how much the kind of like, individualist consumer mentality has played into that, right? I mean, it's, it's just kind of understood that when you don't get, I don't know, if you if a product is different than you want you return it, or if a product isn't what you paid for, or there's just there's very much a correlation between the money you're willing to spend and the outcome you're willing to receive from that spending your return on investment. And so I can see why people would think, Oh, goodness, if I show the kinks or whatever are people going to continue investing in in

Andy Brennan:

a world with social influencers? It's very natural for us to ask the question, How am I marketing myself? As I'm approaching my donors, yeah. And that's tricky, like, what do we what do we do with that? Because in, in one sense, we do want to be thoughtful about how we approach our donors, like, how do we do that in a way that honors them that that shows them, hey, I have I've prepared. And I put thought into this, but I'm also being myself, I'm also being authentic. That's a hard that doesn't feel natural to me.

Unknown:

And what some people on the survey said, also just sometimes balancing the tension between different supporters. So for example, people on the the idea of faith and theology and sex and sexuality, saying I might have some churches that are very LGBTQ affirming, interesting, and some sending churches that are very, not more traditional marriage. And so having to navigate in to some supporters having to not present and such, but knowing certain things are gonna be very, very important to them. And in other contexts, other things are going to be very, very important. And trying to say, I just want to share what is happening in my ministry with you, I'm, I realized, this church is going to have certain theology, church B is going to have certain theology, but I'm here as a cross cultural worker being sent by you to share about my ministry, and not to get into some of the political or theological conversations that are important to have. But that's not what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm doing other work. Yeah, one of the questions it raised for me looking at all of the data from the survey is, how can we be people have conviction, but also connection. So my takeaway wasn't, suddenly you have no convictions on a theological point or a political point. So for example, at the time that we're recording this, the war between Israel and Gaza, and then Ukraine and Russia are going on, and different elections around the world, and knowing that they may be more supportive of one side than the other in a war. And other supporters may be very different. So my takeaway isn't well don't have any convictions, like don't, don't be pro whatever, pro Gaza, pro Israel pro Ukraine, it's not to have no convictions. But I'm just curious how we can all be people have convictions, and yet, not just then be in our little camps, right, but to truly be then working together and serving together. So that's just something I personally have just been mulling over how we can do that better. Because

Andy Brennan:

that's the stuff that really, I think doesn't appeal to a lot of us when we when we think about politics, like the flip flopping. And the pandering to your constituents and that sort of thing. That's just really like, sours us I think, yeah, yeah.

Unknown:

But I know from that survey, some people have very strong feelings, in particular, about the war between Gaza and Israel, sure, fencing, their supporters would have very, very different feelings. And so how to not let that become divisive. Yeah. And as I say that we can all have convictions. I don't think that's wrong, but to not die on the Hill of our convictions. Sure. And one person had said something to the effect of you know, what, not being scared to cultivate, quote, unquote, the right kind of supporter, that maybe not everyone is going to be the best partner for you. And if you're finding you're really having to bend over backwards for one or two people or groups, trust that the Lord. Again, we talked a little bit earlier about scarcity mindset. Trust that if they end up deciding not to partner with you, that will be okay. The Lord will provide you with other partners who understand the vision and mission that you are doing, and are excited to support you, and that you don't have to totally hide or downplay parts of yourself to contort yourself into the box of what they want you to be. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But to find partners that are for you.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, it feels like maybe even if there isn't necessarily agreement, there's alignment. Yes, yeah.

Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. In part for me, also, as I've been thinking about embracing your humanity and fundraising, to factor in, maybe we need to put a personal growth budget line in our fundraising. So be that books that you want to, you know, say, Hey, I'd like to read three new books a year. So building that in to fundraising, building in meeting with a spiritual director or a coach saying, hey, if I'm coming up on a big transition, I would like to budget for six sessions with a coach, or I would like to, you know, I am just kind of curious about some, some theology things. I'm not changing my belief in Jesus, but I'm wondering a little bit on baptism, or the role of women like just things you might have seen differently, because you've lived in a different culture. And you served with people from different cultures. And so you're just wanting to process that in a safe place. So finding a spiritual director being willing to pay for a spiritual director. Yeah. Budgeting. I'm sure you've talked about this, but this came up budgeting for retirement. Sure, budgeting for things with kids, kids education and vacations. And not saying that I can't take vacations because my supporters would not like that, right.

Andy Brennan:

Because we had this Thriftiness is next to godliness, right? Tality. Yeah. But saying,

Unknown:

as humans, humans have needs to have fun, I started at the top of this hour, or the top of our podcasts, to have fun. Yeah, it's ridiculous to think any of us are going to figure everything out by ourselves. So I am going through a transition to have a coach who's worked with a lot of people who are in transition, they can help me, one of the things we talk about a global trellis is the idea of currency isn't just money. When we define currency only as money, we're thinking way too small. There are lots of currencies, there's relationship, there's time, there's effort, there are finances. So finding the right currency for something at sometimes the right currency is paying a counselor. Absolutely a spiritual director. If

Heather Winchell:

you think about it, it actually can be a really great stewardship of financial resources and time to to position yourself to receive from someone that has to give versus trying to either do one with a limp, or, or try to kind of reinvent the wheel yourself. And

Andy Brennan:

ultimately, the question that I have is, maybe there's a there's probably a survey out there. But like, why do people leave the field prematurely? I wonder how what percentage of them are? Well, I just felt the Lord was calling me home versus funds ran out, or this crisis is

Heather Winchell:

in trouble for my mental health. Yeah, whatever. And out, yes. Right.

Andy Brennan:

So I think if you had an honest conversation with a donor that is like minded, it wouldn't be a hard leap to say I need to budget in not only my professional development, but also my personal growth.

Unknown:

And my family well being Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of that. Yeah. And that's why I would love to see it more and more just being a line item on the budget. And so not kind of, I'll say, hidden in the budget sprinkled in, like, oh, well, I'll take a little here, or I didn't quite spend all of this. So I'll use, I can use that to buy books to say no, I have a line of professional development, personal development. And it includes meeting with someone books, maybe taking a course. That's great, all of that. And then so depending on the year, depending on your need, you will use that money differently, if

Andy Brennan:

that's really hard, because I mean, at least the people that I work with, not all of them, but a lot of them will look at an initial budget and say, What can I take out? How can I before I've gotten in the car to drive it, I want to start taking out the power windows and the in the steering I can get by on less. Which is again that scarcity mentality when Yeah, why are you why are you hamstringing? Why are you putting more obstacles there in front of you that you don't need? Because like, What's the reason behind that?

Heather Winchell:

Because it feels daunting. It does. Yeah, I mean, it legitimately feels daunting, until we can really start to reframe and see and kind of think of God's massiveness in light of this budget that we're looking at. And, you know, I think that's why it's really such a gift to have God's word and the stories of His provision for his people over time to see like, oh, it's no new thing for him to to provide in really unique creative ways. You know, even when a task seems daunting, and

Andy Brennan:

just to pull on one thread that you said one of the, the areas of guilt, maybe a better way to say that if humanity was the debt and the finances like they didn't want to tell their donors about that. And that just seems like a perpetuating cycle like you can't tell them about it. And then so they can't raise the funds to cover that. That's tough.

Unknown:

Quite a few people will more than just a few as what I'm trying to say not loads, but a Deaf reference being having credit card debt, because they didn't have enough financial support. And so they then were taking their own ministry expenses. And the main way they're paying for it was with credit cards, which broke my heart. Because again, I just, I don't think that's God's heart for anyone on the field to go into massive credit card or personal debt. I just Yeah. So that made me sad that that they felt that pressure and that that was their reality. Yeah,

Heather Winchell:

absolutely. So I'm curious whether thinking about this in light of that survey, or from your own experience, or even people that you've worked with, I would love to hear some examples of what you think it looks like if we fail to honor our humanity in fundraising.

Unknown:

One, from the very beginning, when I said is, reality of being human is something's going to happen. And you don't know in your situation, if it is that you're going to be have an illness on the field, that you're going to be in a car accident, suddenly, you know, you ate something and your tooth broke, and you're having to deal with a dental bill that you weren't planning. But being human, something is going to come in, maybe there's a little pressure on your marriage, you hadn't envisioned, your marriage isn't in trouble, it is not in crisis. But how much better to go, you know, this is a part of being human, our marriages are going to have seasons that are quote unquote, easier, and quote unquote, harder as a single person, loneliness, that you're going to have seasons where you don't really feel that lonely and other seasons that you feel very lonely. And so to note, this is a part of being human is the ebb and flow of life. And to when I think the problem for a lot of people is when we don't factor that in. So when you say when we don't factor that into our fundraising, there is no margin, then, for a medical bill. Medical Bill can almost send you over the edge, as opposed to saying, you know, what humans are going to have medical realities, whether it be our kids, ourselves, marriages are going to go through ebbs and flows, it does not mean we're doing marriage wrong, or we're in a bad marriage, or we're in a crisis, you're gonna have seasons of loneliness, or where you do just need someone outside of your organization to talk through something, so that you can be in your organization fully invested. And so just to say, I think when we deny our humanity, we live with too little margin. And so the line between sustainability and true crisis is much more. It's too thin. It's much thinner than the Lord wanted. Even though global trellis loves to provide resources and train and support and walk with people. The truth is, we cannot 100% No organization can absolutely, like crisis, prevent or crisis avoid, or, or just all of these things related to humanity. The thing is, we can walk with people, we can have equipped people. So when they're going through the valley, a, it's normalized. So they know this is not a fun valley to walk through. But I'm not a bad person. I'm not a bad cross cultural worker, I'm not doubting the Lord. This is unfortunately, this is the valley of the shadow of death. But I will fear no evil for you are with me, like we have pre loaded the truth of the Scripture and resources. So that when we go through those Valley times, or a crisis, we have some resources in place to walk with us. And it might cushion them a little bit, but that to totally avoid them. And I think in that survey, a lot of people because there isn't the permission to have anxiety, or to be depressed, to feel a little overwhelmed with what you're doing. Then the answer is just to push harder to hide that Yeah. Which then leads to burnout. And burnout can lead to true breaking a true yeah, emotional. Physical. Well break.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, and you didn't mention this by name, but I'm certain it's there. But addiction. That's how that's how addiction takes such a destructive hold is by feeling a greater and greater need to hide and in diminish,

Unknown:

hide and diminish and then even Trying to medicate sideways.

Heather Winchell:

Right? Right. So, yeah, yeah. So there's a few things that just really blew me away from what you just said, I do think that humanity needs margin. And it's just it's so interesting because again, our cultural stream is so efficient, there's such a high value on efficiency, optimization. And if only, we could just be machines that get the downloads that we need and get the servicing that we need. And we can just run hard. But that's just not how it is. And it's just it's, so what we want to move towards all the time, you know, just kind of getting to this place where set it and forget it, that's not a problem anymore. Don't struggle with that, you know, it's just, it's just not the human experience.

Andy Brennan:

It's not reality.

Heather Winchell:

It's not reality. It but it feels like there is such pressure for that, which is heartbreaking.

Unknown:

It is I will also say, I don't know, I imagine you both are familiar with the Enneagram. Yeah, I am a three. So my love language is efficiency. And yet, even in that, I can see like, that's just one strand of God. I mean, I think that's what I do love about the Enneagram is, it shows the whole facet it and so God loves efficiency, but that's not the only thing he loves, right. And so in it in our humanity, to say, I think God has really been teaching me efficiency isn't the supreme goal, right? It is not, it's not a bad goal. And if you can find ways to do certain things better, that's not bad. That's good. Yeah. Again, being a good steward of resources, but to say, we have all been formed by our cultures, and so to go, Ah, I have been formed by efficiency. And so that's not good or bad, like God, these are God given gifts. Yeah, of how he has wired me. But to also say, Amy, you are human. You need to also factor in things related to your humanity, food, sleep, connection, rest, all of that. And when those are in proper alignment, or more proper alignment, when they're given space, actually, then efficiency can come out to Yeah, right. That's the irony. You have

Andy Brennan:

more fuel to work with? Yeah. Well, so this is this is all maybe some listeners saying this is all well and good if somebody is starting out for the first time, and they're building a budget. But how do I how do I approach my donors? And say, my costs have gone up? How would I? How do I reengage them, and like pitch this idea to them?

Unknown:

I would say be honest. And so if you are in fundraising long enough, for example, as I have been in fundraising, now, almost 30 years, when I started, I would not have known, you know, 27 year old Amy would not have known the needs of 56 year old Amy, that's just reality. And so now to be able to share things. If you are on the field, and you've got aging parents, and you need to now budget at one or two trips a year home to visit your aging parent.

Andy Brennan:

Yeah,

Unknown:

there's a crisis of medical crisis with a family member. You've got kids going off to college, I think you just share with them at this stage of life. What I'm facing, maybe you're in your late 20s and early 30s, and you're facing infertility, which first of all, if you are, I'm so sorry. But facing infertility on the field is so challenging, and that's retarded, you might not want to put all of that out in the newsletter, right? But you find some supporters who you can share that part of your humanity. And they and say, Hey, we need to make whatever three extra trips to this city for fertility treatment, and that's going to cost us $2,800 Would you be willing to pay for our transportation? Yeah, so I think people when people get it, that's what I wanted to say. You said it. So clearly. Any people get it, if you just say I need$2,800 People can be like, Why are but if it's a specific need, I just recently got a newsletter from an organization and they shared some specific things. And I have to say, because it was specific, and it wasn't just, we want $5,000 It was we want it to do XYZ and it really moved me and I'm like, I want to be a part of that. I could see you're gonna have supporters who are like, I want to be a part of helping them have those letters. Yeah, I want Yes, I want to be a part of letting that person have as much time with their mom or dad as they can as they're aging. We gotta get to be a part. Yeah. Well,

Heather Winchell:

and you know, just kind of thinking about a recent conversation we have with Travis Cottrell around the values of authenticity and vulnerability I really Think that vulnerability, like unlocks connection in a very unique way. And I mean, of course, like you said, I think it's appropriate to be discerning in the extent that you're vulnerable, given the relationship and things like that. But I do think that if it feels safe to be vulnerable, it can, it can be a really powerful connector, and really allow opportunity for people to meet you in that need. Okay, so I'm curious, let's say that we were going to add a module to the pre Visio curriculum on the topic of your humanity and fundraising, what are different subtopics or emphases that you would want to write into that module?

Unknown:

I would love to kind of brace the whole of humanity. And I would love to help people think a little bit through human development. What are your needs at in your 20s? And at that stage talking about really, if you can do some fundraising, if your organization does things with retirement or not big if you start to think about retirement in your 20s, when it's fundraising, it makes such a difference? Oh, such a difference? It feels really cruel to talk to 60 year olds who have not been doing it? Well, yes. Shut up, like so like to find age and stage appropriate, like what are age and stage appropriate for in your 30s Thinking about fundraising is someone in their early 20s talking about family planning and budgeting for your children's education, that just again, college funds, yeah, begin right begin to plant those seeds. But I think it is so helpful. If we had like chart if we had like some, I do love a good church, like can visualize something or a timeline. These are things to be thinking about in your 20s. When it comes to fundraising. These are things to be thinking about in your 30s when it comes to fundraising, these are things in your 40s or 50s. These are things to be thinking about, if you're married, these are things to be thinking about if you're single, yeah, these are things to be thinking about when you have, let's say 123 Kids, these are things to be thinking about when you've got four to six kids. And just because again, going all of those scenarios are valid, but they're really different. And so to have a little bit of specialized, you know, as a single person, you need to think about retirement differently. You need to think about health insurance differently, then a married couple, sure. Because if you are now in the hospital, there isn't someone else to keep working, you are now not able to quote unquote, work. So all of these things, I would just love to have that. And have it not be again, daunting, but the I would love for it to be framed. We are made in the image of God, we are image bearers. God does not find our humanity an imposition. God made us as humans. He loves our humanity.

Heather Winchell:

He's so human.

Unknown:

Yeah. So how then can we overlay that with fundraising and not be like, Oh, this is the biggest bummer. No, this is this is a big opportunity to think about things. And so I would just love for people to not feel one of the specialists we have at global trellised is a financial specialist, because I've found so many cross cultural workers find the financial piece overwhelming. And therefore then they just don't talk about it. And it's actually an area, it feels very heavy. Because they're not able to talk about it. Instead of just saying, Look, this is a part of my humanity. We need to talk about finances, the way we need to talk about rest the way we need to talk about grief, the way we need to talk about efficiency. Let's just talk about it.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, it strikes me that, you know, if we were to have a curriculum on this, which we just might have to do, because I feel like so many of those ideas were so helpful, that there's just so many angles on this, like, not only is it the your humanity and fundraising, like think of very practically the things you're going to come up against as you are a human finding yourself living in support based ministry. But then also, it's just kind of I don't know if I would say a mantra, but just kind of something to remind yourself of in the fundraising process, especially in those seasons where the formula would require you to kind of operate outside the limits that you have as a human right, or maybe not the formula but but just thinking that you know, there are some seasons where it feels like there's a lot of pressure to get this many calls in and this meeting this many meetings and to send this many things and I think it's so good to operate with clear goals and to move towards those and some days. You just don't feel well and it's okay. If you have to make an adjustment right versus kind of having this exact thing attitude towards yourself of like, no to, you know, I need to get through this or I can't stop until I've done this or I don't know. I mean, Andy, don't you feel like you talk with clients that struggle with knowing their limits? And embracing that? I think

Andy Brennan:

there's both sides of that. Yeah, sure. There are some people that are a little too chill. But yeah, absolutely there. I mean, there's a lot of people that are really high achievers, and maybe super high perfectionist, as well, and on the responsibility scale, just off the charts. And so those are the people that we'd have to say, Sabbath is divine, and it is ordained. So you got to do it. And you got to operate out of rest, and not out of just fatigue and just a sense of duty.

Unknown:

I love what you said there and do. All of us in our humanity is gonna be slightly different. So part of it is self knowledge, understanding, maybe I am a little too chill. So I need to then factor this in, or maybe I am a little too type A and so I need to factor this in that the even the what does it mean to be human? is going to vary? Right? Yes. Why? Not? A few months? And to say, Okay, I know I can be a little too obsessive. If I haven't made my you know, 27 calls by 9am. I have failed. Yeah. And it's another as opposed to someone else like, oh, God's got it. I don't have to do anything. Well, no, there is personal responsibility. But also it is the work of the Spirit. I mean, this is where it is. Yeah. There are good principles, but it's not exactly formulaic. Right.

Andy Brennan:

Absolutely, totally. Okay, so I think what stands out here, as we kind of wrap up here, Amy, is that this concept can go both ways, not only honoring and recognizing our own humanity as a fundraiser, but also honoring the humanity of the people that are partnering with us. So I'm wondering, do you have any thoughts about honoring our donors? I

Unknown:

love that question. I do have thoughts. And I think partially, what I'd like to say to everyone listening is go with your personality, what's going to work for one person is not going to be honoring to another, some of you are going to know like all the birthdays of supporters, if that's how you want to if that works for you. That's awesome. Others of you honestly, how I honor the humanity. I connect with people via sports. And so when I know sort of, honestly, it is so funny. Now I will see a certain football team and I will think of someone I served with in China, or when I'm on Sunday, watching the NFL, it is actually a great day internally for me of connecting to people. They might not know it, but it reminds me to pray for them. It reminds me to think about them. Oh, that's right, that person, you know, their mom was sick, or they're this. So find whatever it's going to work for you to honor their humanity. Yeah. And then do that. Use that method. And instead of being like some might be really you honor their humanity

Andy Brennan:

through sports by praying for the Ravens. But I pray

Unknown:

for Crystal Lin. Yes, right? Not the Ravens. But yes, the Ravens remind me of her. And it's true, I could literally go through almost every NFL team, and I have it associated with someone that I have served with. And it reminds me to pray for them. I've got supporters in two big chunks from Colorado and from Kansas. So often in newsletters, I will reference the Kansas Jayhawks and the Denver Broncos to find ways to connect with humanity. So I just want to encourage everyone, whatever is going to work for you the chances of 98% of you now using the NFL in the United States to connect with your supporters, very slim. But find something that's going to work for you that will help you have an in to their humanity. And a connecting point.

Heather Winchell:

That's really good. Yeah, I think another thought that brings up for me, is just you know, there's a lot of kind of assumptions we can make. When we are reaching out to people, and we don't hear back from them. I think that that specifically, is such a great opportunity to remember their humanity. There's a phrase that I used to use over and over when I was coaching people more actively, and that was just that, you know, your urgency is not their urgency. So don't be quick to make an assumption about their silence. It could be that their kid broke their arm or that they got the stomach bug or you know, it could be all kinds of things. And so it just feels like that's another place that inserting this like, Oh, they're human stuff comes up for them to I don't need to sweat it. You know, that can be helpful.

Unknown:

I love it. That's great.

Andy Brennan:

I guess that was that would be my final question. I mean, that's just it's just another way to phrase what you just said. But maybe Amy help us think through a way to maybe rewrite this mindset or some of these soundtracks that we have going on in our head. If we find ourselves going down this path that says, I'm broken, I'll be exposed. I don't want to disappoint my community, give us like a true statement to confront that lie that we could be telling ourselves.

Unknown:

The first thing that popped into my mind and it was the idea of breath prayers. And that idea of praying like Lord helped me believe truth. So like inhaling Lord helped me exhaling belief truth. You know, what is the truth here, Lord, you know, their heart, you know, my heart helped me to think rightly, about others. And just leaning into some of these, these breath prayers that slow us down. And I think it's an as we are slowed down, that our mind sometimes our thoughts get racing so far ahead of us, and we spiral ourselves way out, totally loaded down to go, oh, oh, you're right. I don't know that they quote unquote, hate me. Maybe they had the stomach flu. Yeah. Two very different things. Very different. Absolutely. But when we get our thoughts going so fast, that's what I love about breath prayers is it slows down? And the Holy Spirit then can whisper? You don't know that's true? Or do you know that for sure, or Yeah, I love you. You don't need to worry about this.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, that's great. I thought I had Andy in is just that we've, we've kind of talked about this in some other episodes recently. But naming something kind of helps you move through it. And understanding and acknowledging I'm going to have obstacles in this process kind of prepares you to know that obstacles will come. And so I think just naming I'm human, and I'm going to be awkward sometimes. And I'm not going to say things the way I want sometimes and kind of just owning it and acknowledging it, normalizes it, and then I think enables you move through it. Yeah, yeah,

Andy Brennan:

it's good. I

Unknown:

love that. And just even the idea of like, I'm human also means sometimes I do things really well, yes. So often, we associate our humanity with brokenness. And I'm like, we were human, before brokenness entered the picture. And so sometimes Being human means I'm going to hit it out of the ballpark. I'm going to make a presentation. And it's going to really move people because I did a good job. And the Holy Spirit was at work, like I handled my part well. And so all of that it does come back so much to our mindset is to be human doesn't just mean to be flawed. Yes, actually, that's

Heather Winchell:

so important.

Andy Brennan:

Yeah. And I wish you would have maybe asked this question at the beginning of the episode, because I fear that somebody might even see the title and say, I don't want to honor my humanity. My humanity is sinful. Yeah. Well,

Unknown:

it is, but it's also not sinful. And it's really fun. And it likes to eat french fries. So yeah, that is the good part of being human too. Yeah. Well,

Heather Winchell:

yeah. Because in the faculties that God has given us as you I mean, we bear his image. Humanity bears his image, his creativity, the capacity for love for like choice. Yeah, choice and agency. To love to sacrifice. Yeah,

Unknown:

it's good. Oh, that. Yeah, I wish we'd said that earlier. Oh, well.

Heather Winchell:

Okay, well, this has been a fabulous conversation. I really, really fun, from my perspective. Absolutely. So by way of encouragement, what else would you want to say to our listeners as they persevere in support based ministry?

Unknown:

One of my favorite reminders to myself is we're in a marathon, not a sprint. And God is for us for the long haul. I think sometimes there can be such urgency in ministry, like, everything's got to work out this month, or I've got to know exactly what my next step is this month, where I have to get all of this done. And working with hundreds 1000s of people now for decades, life is long, and God is gracious. And that would just sort of be my hope. We are faithful with what we've been entrusted. But we're not a slave to it. And there's just, I think, a different flavor between faithfulness, versus slavery to like God has called me I have to do all of this. And just, it's whether you're on full time support for two years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. God is going to be walking with you all of that time and beyond. And just the idea that God, it's a marathon, we're in this for the long haul to enjoy it.

Andy Brennan:

That's great. And also something I picked up it seems like we really need to intentionally make decisions that lead us into community and out of isolation. Absolutely seems critical. Yeah.

Heather Winchell:

Which is also very core to humanity. We were made to be with people through

Andy Brennan:

Great, well, any other resources that you would recommend as we wrap up?

Unknown:

Mostly, I'd recommend people just visit global troubles. We've got a lot of resources for people asked salutely.

Andy Brennan:

And then we'll link your author page from Amazon. Is that the best way to kind of see all the stuff that you've put up to find all the books? Yes, yeah. Okay. Okay. And

Heather Winchell:

truly last question. You have $10,000 that you're given today, kind of theoretical five seconds to decide what to do with it, who and what do you give it to?

Unknown:

I have a friend, because I've heard you ask this question to others. So I've actually every every time I hypothetically think about this. She came from a really challenging background, and requires almost weekly therapy. And that's very, it gets very expensive. Yes, it does. And if I could just give her $10,000 To relieve that burden, and just let her know what you're doing is honorable, like you are not broken because you need therapy this often. I would give her the$10,000 Awesome.

Heather Winchell:

I love it. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time.

Andy Brennan:

So good to see you again. Amy.

Unknown:

Thank you I have so enjoyed that. Thank you. Hello, thank you Andy. Thank you listeners.

Andy Brennan:

It's not about the money is presented by pro Vizio fundraising solutions for Vizio equipped support base workers with flexible training, practical resources and one on one coaching. Find out more at pre Visio fundraising.com.