It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

29.5 RECAP with Bernie Anderson

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 3 • Episode 29

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In this episode, we recap our insightful conversation with Amy Young, founder of Global Trellis. To help us unpack the profound topics discussed, we are joined by Bernie Anderson from Growability. Bernie brings his extensive experience in business development and cross-cultural work to the table, offering a unique perspective on the challenges and opportunities in the fundraising world.

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>> Heather:

welcome to it's not about the money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather, and together with my co host, Andy, we look beyond the quick tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it, this is the place for you. Welcome back to the show, everyone. Today we are here to recap the wonderful conversation that we had with Amy young. And after we had that conversation, I asked Amy, hey, Amy, do you know anybody that might want to recap this episode? Because, as you guys know, we do a, recap for each content episode. And to this point, we actually haven't let the guest choose who recaps their episode, but it felt kind of fun. And actually, I'm really glad we asked her that, because she introduced us to a man named Bernie Anderson. And I'm so glad she did because Bernie actually works with a company called growability, and he co hosts a, podcast with growability. And I've been listening to some of the episodes, and they're fantastic.

>> Andy:

Awesome.

>> Heather:

So I'm really excited to introduce our guests to Bernie Anderson, who will help us recap this episode. Bernie, could you tell us a bit more about you and your experiences in fundraising?

>> Bernie Anderson:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the invite, and, yeah, this is. This is fun. Yeah. My name's Bernie. I've been, my wife and I have been married now, actually, in just a few days, we'll have been married for 35 years.

>> Andy:

Nice.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Yeah. So, we have two grown children. our son, who's 31 and working as a real estate agent here in the town where we live, Greenville, South Carolina, currently. And, our daughter lives out in Denver, Colorado. She's a manager at a restaurant and 29 years old and all that.

>> Heather:

So fun.

>> Bernie Anderson:

our background is, I was a pastor for 13 something years. And, then, our family went to Ola batter, mongolia, and we were living cross culturally for, a better part of ten years. And then, we moved back to the US in 2014. And, from there, I've worked with a couple of other, organizations. In about 2018, started working with growability and doing, business development and cross cultural business development. And so that's been kind of a fun journey. So, we do some fundraising with, the organization that we're with now, currently. So we do some personal fundraising. my wife and I, as well as growability, we do a lot of training and help with people who, are working, particularly in the nonprofit space and who really want to understand how, you know, how do we do this fundraising thing, which in kind of business world is really sales and marketing. Right. Like, that's kind of what it is. At the end of the day, we don't like to call it that, but that's really what it is. So the principles actually apply and transfer really well, kind of across that, across that space. But no. Thank you for the invite. It's really good to be here.

>> Heather:

Yeah. We're so glad to have you.

>> Andy:

And, Heather, we've talked about sales before a little bit about just being fundamentally about moving somebody from one place to another.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Moving people.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Hm.

>> Andy:

So if we can look at it without all the kind of negative context around it, that helps.

>> Bernie Anderson:

I think that's so important because, at the end of the day, sales is really one of the most generous things that you can do, you know? And, because you're. You're actually helping someone solve a problem. And. And I think that is even true in fundraising, which not really the point of this episode, but I think that's, something that's, something I'm super passionate about, so.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Well, maybe that's something we could explore at another time. Yeah, sure.

>> Bernie Anderson:

There you go.

>> Heather:

Yeah, there we go. Okay, well, thank you for that brief overview. And guys, like I said, I have been listening to the growability podcast, and I have found it just really intriguing and such great information. So I would encourage you to check it out. And the premise of the podcast is a more excellent way to run your business, and with that, just a better way to approach life and business. And I found it really helpful.

>> Andy:

Awesome.

>> Heather:

Okay, so from this episode, what stood out?

>> Bernie Anderson:

You know, it's funny, when the episode opened with kind of Amy telling a little bit of her story. I've worked with Amy now for probably, ah, geez, like four years, maybe. I've been kind of part of the global trellis content team, and I had not heard about Amy almost dying on the field.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

And I think, like, until, like, we began to, I had this conversation with her at one of the recording, one of the first of what will be a, global trellis, the podcast. And I actually did not know that part of Amy's story. Story. And I think I had the same, like, I could hear your kind of visceral, like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, I think I had the same reaction. So, her story is just amazing, and the grace of God in that is just astounding. And I guess that was one of the first, one of the first things that kind of stood out to me was just how amazing that was. So, but, you know, from that, I think that one of the things that Amy brought up that to me is an important issue for anyone. Raising funds is thinking in terms of abundance and not scarcity. That just feels like a really important value for anybody and everybody, but particularly for people who are fundraising, you.

>> Heather:

Know? Yeah, I really, I really appreciated, yeah, I was totally caught off guard, like, wow. Oh my goodness, that is a lot to handle as a, you know, young 20 something. But I really appreciated how it did really bring up the humanity in when, you know, you're fundraising for your ministry, you're just kind of looking for all the ways you can cut costs. And honestly, you know, I think that when I was in that seat as a young 20 something, I was also looking at all of those, you know, medical, extra medical things.

>> Andy:

So I really need health insurance.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Or like even savings and stuff like that. And it's just easy to cut because you don't think you're going to need it. But I just really appreciated that her story highlighted. Like, no, actually, you need to plan for the disruption. You need to plan for these things that you don't anticipate, but that will likely happen.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Yeah, I realize we all sound like old people when we say this, right? Like, if, there's 20 somethings that are fundraising right now and listening to this podcast, I mean, it's like, oh, you're old, but I mean, it's true, though. And like, like, as, I mean, I think that was probably, that had to have been her, like, awakening for the first time of, Oh, gosh, I need to actually think about some of these things. And I mean, when you're 20 something, you just, like, I was, I remember thinking, like, I mean, I'm, it's going to be at least centuries before I'm like old and sick and close to death. Right?

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

And then you hit 50, like really fast, and once you get into your fifties, it's like, oh, geez. Like, like, it's. Life is a vapor.

>> Andy:

Ah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

So planning for these things is really important. I'm, really glad that came out in the, in the podcast, so.

>> Heather:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

>> Andy:

It feels like we should do an episode on scarcity mindset.

>> Heather:

Yeah, well, it's coming, you know that.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Yeah, I think it would be a, I think that's an important, well, it's an important concept for fundraising. Realizing that, I mean, just so often. I know I, in the past, when raising funds have come from the approach of, like, nobody really wants to, like, give their money up and, like, there's just little old me, you know, they're not gonna wanna, you know, I'm. If I just get enough to pay a couple of bills and, you know, maybe not go too deep into debt, it'll be okay. And, I mean, I think realizing that, hey, it's, there's nothing wrong with actually having those things planned for. In fact, the older you get, the more you realize I should have had those things planned for.

>> Andy:

Even though it's hard to build in retirement, a 401k when you're 22 years old.

>> Bernie Anderson:

But, oh, it's so hard.

>> Andy:

So good.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

One of the other things that I thought was really interesting, and I'd be interested to hear what you guys thought of this. But the whole issue that was brought up about, well, going back to the survey, right. She mentioned Amy m mentioned the survey where so many people on the field are responding and talking about, you know, things that they never want their sending organizations to know about or their supporters to know about.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Bernie Anderson:

because I am a superhuman, and I'm on the field, and everybody calls me a hero. And, this pedestal concept just, that hit home to me. And I've had some kind of off the microphone conversations with Amy about some of these things and that I just feel like, I mean, I remember with the organization that I was with, like, we would get called heroes all the.

>> Andy:

Time by m the organization.

>> Bernie Anderson:

By the organization. Yeah, absolutely. And yet that. And I mean, let me just be clear. I'm not going to say who the organization was. They were, they're a good organization. Right.

>> Andy:

Uh-huh.

>> Bernie Anderson:

But when an organization says to their workers, hey, you guys are heroes, that, that pedestal that you get put on, the, the superhero humanizing that happens at that point is actually, at the end of the day, dehumanizing. And I think that is just an incredibly important point, that the superhumanizing is just as dangerous to me as, you know, a dehumanization. Oh, you're just garbage. Right? Like, we know that's not good. You know, you don't call people garbage. You don't call people, like, you know, dehumanization is wrong and sinful.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Bernie Anderson:

But I also think the superhumanization, it can be just as destructive. It's sneaky.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

And I just thought that point coming out was really important.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Because really, that is like, how is that going to form you? It's either going to form you into pride or force form you into hiding or. Or feeling like you can't, you can't be seen in your mess or in the things that aren't what people would expect or that, or your wrestlings. Right. And wrestlings are just part of the experience. And mess is just part of the.

>> Andy:

Experience because we expect our heroes to be flawless.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And it's uncomfortable when they're not. And, you know, I don't know. We might cut this entirely, but we saw the movie dune, and, of course you did. Yes. And dune, too.

>> Bernie Anderson:

I did. Very much, yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And I actually really struggled when I realized that the main character wasn't actually like a hero figure.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Heather:

Like, that really bothered me.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Heather:

And, and I think that that's interesting because I'm. I mean, I understand the plight of humanity and that it's really only ever Jesus, who is actually the true and the totally true person to who he is or whatever. That hero really can't be found in any person outside of Jesus. But even just from my own reaction to a character in a movie, I can see how people feel like if they were to show weakness or struggle or whatever, how people might reject them or it might have people see them differently and maybe affect their funding or affect their ability to do ministry.

>> Andy:

You know, I wonder if this is also a challenge for church leaders.

>> Heather:

Yes. I mean, statistically, with a lot of what we're seeing in the american church with hidden sin being exposed, I would say probably so.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

I'm sure this applies to people in asterisk. And, I mean, it's funny because I realized for my entire career, I mean, this was one of the shocks, like the transition, like reverse culture shocks or whatever, of coming off the mission field. And it's something I began to realize while we were on the field. But then when we came off the field, it was like, oh, we've been super humanized, and we're not. Like, we're not, you know.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

I could never do what you do, and it's like, you could actually. You could actually. Yeah.

>> Andy:

So I think they're coming from a good place of, like, wanting to, like, encourage and cheer and energize and say, you can do this. You've got this.

>> Heather:

And we appreciate that you're doing this.

>> Andy:

Yeah, yeah. But it would be, I don't know.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

The focus is on you versus he can do this through you.

>> Heather:

Well, it reminds me of a couple of things. First, I want to say that I actually do think people can live faithful lives and be in positions where people think much of them and they handle it rightly. Right. Like, in talking about pastors and talking about missionaries and in saying, yeah, like, there are people that can do that really faithfully. But it reminds me of something I recently read in acts where Paul, Oh, man, I'm trying to remember. Is he in Lystra? Anyways, Paul and Barnabas go in, and I think some healings happen, and all the people are, like, convinced that he's a God, and so they just kind of start to worship him. And he's so comfortable with it, and he's like. He's like, guys, look, you're missing the point. Like, I. Like, I am a. I am a dude, and it's about Jesus. And. And so I think that. Yeah, I think that story is very striking in showing that that's going to happen.

>> Andy:

But, yeah, the, people will elevate you when they see you come in with. With whatever authority.

>> Heather:

That doesn't mean you have to take that on, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

well, and that. And that kind of leads to the other part of the conversation that Amy brought up. The. I think it was Amy, maybe one of you guys, actually. But the idea that there's the nuance with what you share with your supporters, because it's not like then you kind of are on this a little bit of a tightrope, right? You want to. You realize that you can't just be real with everybody, right? Like, there are certain people that, hey, I. I may share a little bit of a different political view than what my supporting church does. Maybe I don't need to share that because it might make people mad versus, hey, I'm just. This is who I am, and you know what?

>> Andy:

Deal with it.

>> Bernie Anderson:

I actually. You may not be the right kind of supporter for me. And again, it goes back to that abundance mentality I've found in working with fundraising for the last, ten years, I guess, that people support what they want to support. And what I mean by that, I mean, that sounds like a. Ah. Like a. I don't know, who is it, Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron? You know, it ain't over till it's over kind of thing. You know, it's like a duh sort of, statement, but, you know, like, people support what they want to support, and if they want to support water and you do church planting, they're not the people that want to support, like, fresh water aren't going to give money to church planting. Right.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

So, I mean, it's kind of a thing where for you, as someone who's raising support for your ministry, whatever that ministry may be, not everybody that has a buck is going to want to support you or be a good fit for you. And I think that's where there's faith involved in realizing. But there are people that, that do want to support me and will resonate with kind of where I stand, whether it's a, you know, a political thing or a ministry emphasis or, you know, whatever. there are people that want to support that and there are people that want to support you, and I think it's just a matter of, like, you have to find where those people are, you know?

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

So there's nuance on one hand, and I think that's important. Like, just, you don't have to necessarily be everything to everybody on the other hand, you know, like, that's. I just felt like that was a good tension to try to find and that it was one of the things that came out in the podcast that I think's worth taking note of.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Because I think that there is, there's so much room to have discretion and to understand what is most helpful in what I'm communicating, what is keeping the main thing. The main thing. I think it's helpful to see the distinction between communicating for the sake of others and to be helpful. And when it starts to maybe trend towards just trying to stay in alignment where there's not alignment. Right. Or trying to force alignment. And. And I think that's what you're saying with the scarcity mindset, is just recognizing that there might be things that mean that it might not be best for a partnership to continue. And you're free to let that be what it is, instead of in scarcity, trying to hold onto it and kind of bend in this way or hide part of yourself because you're afraid of what it would mean.

>> Andy:

Yeah. Yeah. I may have mentioned this previously on the podcast, but when we were fundraising for our first tour, came, across a friend and, you know, did all the stuff and sat down and had a great conversation. And we felt like this was a shoo in because my wife knew this guy and it was a long history, but at the end of the day, he was like, well, I really want to focus on supporting something more in this area, in this wheelhouse, and it just wasn't as possible with where we were in the creative access world. So, obviously we're not going to rewrite everything and reorient just to go catch that donor and say, well, actually, maybe we will try to plant some churches right. When we can't. We actually can't do that. So, just like, great. Well, let's go our separate directions and we're still friends.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Like, learning to settle in your limits and, like, bless those limits and know that that's, like, for your good.

>> Andy:

Right. Like, celebrate the no as well, because that means they're giving somewhere else and invested somewhere else, hopefully.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Bernie Anderson:

You know, my son grew up at an era of kind of, like, I mean, you can kind of tell where. Where he grew up when I. When I mentioned this, but I know that when he graduated from high school, one of the songs that I sort of, I always thought of him when I thought it, and I wasn't a huge fan of, necessarily a lot of this, like, I don't know, jars of clay and all that, but there's a jars of clay song that actually means a lot to me in relation to my son, and it's called boys lesson one. And the song starts off with, lesson one, do not hide. And I guess there is this thing of where I know I want my son to be who he is and, like, the humanity, the imago dei of him as a person. Right?

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

and same for my daughter. Like, it's the same for all of us. And for anyone who's fundraising, I think there's. While there's nuance and, like, just good social skills, I guess, you know?

>> Andy:

Sure.

>> Bernie Anderson:

There's also this sense of, hey, like, you don't have to hide and you shouldn't hide. And I feel like that came up. I thought of that song actually multiple times as I was listening to the conversation with, Amy that, hey, you know what? Lesson one is do not hide. And I think there's something for the fundraiser to embrace in that recognize you are created in the image of God. You are God's beloved child, and your ministry is going to be different than everyone else's. I mean, it's not going to be the same. And so you have to find donors who are interested in your ministry and let people who are interested in other kinds of ministries go and donate to those kinds of ministries, you know? but don't hide. And I think that's be who you are, and I think that's okay and actually really important.

>> Andy:

And it's not really like a typical business scenario where it's a zero sum game where if I get more, they get less.

>> Bernie Anderson:

That's right.

>> Andy:

Right. Because we have God, who is the provider and giver. And you can't outgive God.

>> Bernie Anderson:

That's right.

>> Andy:

So it's a different paradigm that we're working with.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Mm

>> Bernie Anderson:

And it goes right back to that abundance mentality. And the abundance mentality. There's enough to go around for everyone.

>> Andy:

Absolutely.

>> Bernie Anderson:

And, nobody's going to be lacking, and. And I think that's. That's crucial.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

But, you know, I really can see, I guess, to kind of come at this from a different angle. I really. I understand that we. We would encourage people like, hey, don't hide. Like, be seen, be known. It really is hard, though, when. When you have maybe had a, besetting sin or when you are facing debt, that could, you know, really impact your ability to stay in your ministry. Like, there are things church hurt. Church hurt. Yeah. There are very real things that it is actually vulnerable to be seen in. And.

>> Andy:

And, I mean, so in that situation, what's the. What's the solution?

>> Heather:

Man, well, I don't know if we can give a. Like a one size. I mean, I think the solution is be seen, don't hide. I think you absolutely seek the father and seek out maybe safe people and people that have kind of the agency for what you need. It is very vulnerable to be seen in those things. But I think it's also helpful to remember that we are all going to be in process, in our sanctification until the, very end. And this is why we think it is so important to have a core team, because I think a core team can be a front line of people that are safe, that have your back, and are committed to you in a very unique and purposeful kind of above and beyond way. I think beyond that, this is why it's really helpful to have ascending church and hopefully someone in authority or a pastoral figure that knows you well, that can kind of shepherd you through some of these things, or really just opportunity to connect with safe people and to be pointed towards resources that can help, whether it be with debt or with funds for counseling or even just ways of talking about differences of political opinion, that. That actually can lead to fruitful conversation instead of divisive conversation. I feel like there's communication tools that can very practically help with that. M. You know what I'm saying?

>> Andy:

So wouldn't it be great if the church could teach the rest of the country how to do that?

>> Heather:

That would be great.

>> Andy:

Great.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Well, and I think that just leads to the other thing that Amy mentioned, you know, building, or maybe one of you guys. Again, I'm not remembering now, but, the podcast, in the conversation, it came out, that building into the budget, intentional, intentional personal development costs, whether it's a spiritual director or, a financial counselor or, any of those things that you just mentioned. Heather, I think that having professional development, personal growth in the budget itself is just super critical.

>> Andy:

Genius.

>> Bernie Anderson:

And working with young, cross cultural workers, in our context, we really encourage that, especially if they're in places. I mean, we work with a lot of people in Chiang Mai, Thailand. And Chiang Mai's got all kinds of beautiful personal development growth resources, and they're really cheap, too. So you just build those into the budget and use those. I think that's a really good, that was a really good point that came out in the conversation as well.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And I think if people can really reframe, like, I don't know, sometimes I feel like there can be this way of thinking around money that we spend on our own development is maybe wasted or selfish or not as helpful to the whole. But really, in all these areas that we're talking about, it's actually really important for your ability to show up well for others or to communicate well with others.

>> Andy:

Yeah. And your own sustainability on the field, like, it's a crucible sometimes.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Well, and this is something, and this is, I took this from an author named Greg McKeown, who wrote a book, talks, about the fact that, hey, the military has, missions. And in those missions, part of that mission could be something like protect the asset. It's a military term. And what McEwen says, essentialism is the name of the book. So Greg McEwen, in essentialism, says, protect the asset, thinking of the military term of making sure that you hold on to the football, so to speak. In our work, you are the asset, you are the person. As long as you have life and breath and strength that God has given you, that is going to be where you make the biggest difference on this earth. And so there is a sense in which protecting the asset is crucial for your ministry. And that sounds selfish. And we're taught sometimes that, oh, like, you don't have to think about yourself. No, actually, you do have to think about yourself. you don't think about yourself in the sense of, I'm going to get what I want and be as comfy, comfy as possible. But you know what? You do need to think about yourself in that. Are you healthy? Are you physically, you know, able to do what God's called you to do? Are you mentally, in a place of health and strength, are you spiritually and emotionally healthy? You know, protect the asset.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bernie Anderson:

And I think that's. That's a different mindset, but it's something I. I push with people, because if you don't protect the asset, then it's just gonna be, like, less effectiveness and less opportunity to make a real difference in the world. So that, to me, is really important.

>> Andy:

I think sometimes in the church, too, we get focused on, the singular message to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him. And, yes, absolutely, 100% that. But that also doesn't mean that we shouldn't take care of ourselves or do the things that we need. the opposite of protect the asset is destroy the asset. And that's exactly what the enemy wants. And it works in his favor. If we have no defense and we're just running ourselves ragged and we're burning the candle at both ends and all that kind of stuff, like, we were actually doing him a favor by not taking care of ourselves.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Well, and it strikes me that, I mean, there's a way you can protect yourself in being, like, very self protective, which can look very different than protecting yourself in a way that's, like, right in line with scripture, where he is our refuge, he is our fortress.

>> Andy:

Yes.

>> Heather:

He has actually put forth. Built into the rhythm of the earth is time of waking and action and doing in time of rest and sleeping. So recharging by design, there is a protection of our humanity in just the rhythm of sleeping. Right. Or. But I think that. I think that kind of maybe surrendering to the protection that God gives through community, through people that are skilled in drawing out your soul through spiritual direction or drawing out your wounds through counseling or pastoral work or, you know, whatever, that does look very different than someone that's not willing to risk on others behalf or that kind of hoards for themselves. Or, there's like. There is a self protection that does not look like Jesus.

>> Andy:

Right. We need to unpack maybe what protection. Healthy protection. It's not like binging Netflix.

>> Heather:

Yeah, right.

>> Andy:

Like that. You might feel like that gives you energy and it recharges you, but that's not. That's not actually.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Or like a person that, in self protection, draws a lot of boundaries, but it's not actually boundaries in love for others. It's just boundaries in love for themselves.

>> Andy:

Oh, sure.

>> Heather:

So I think the point I'm trying to make to what Bernie said is, like, I do think people struggle with protect the asset for reasons that you said also, but actually protecting the asset in the way that God designed us to be protected in him and to move about the world in the protection of his design makes total sense.

>> Andy:

I wonder if part of it is too. They might look at their budget and say, well, I've already got this line item here for member care. They should just kind of take care of me, right? So what we're saying is, if that's insufficient or if that isn't there, maybe it's not there at all. Maybe you're with a smaller outfit or, you know, whatever. that's when you need to think about adding additional resources into your budget.

>> Bernie Anderson:

And I mean, I don't know how many leaders in, our world that listen to this podcast, but I would just say is, having worked with, for the last several years, having worked with a lot of young cross cultural workers, I mean, I would just say to leaders, hey, this is like, this is, I think for the coming years, as we work with people, going to the field and keeping them on the field, making, sure that they have those resources in place, is really important. Understanding that, there is the higher risk. And I think Amy mentioned this, I believe, in the sense that people in the field, there is a higher risk in bringing in. I think she mentioned something about her friend that she talked to who had never, as I like to put it, never purchased a one way ticket to another place that you weren't coming back from anytime in the near future. Right. There's, there's a difference in doing that and doing that on support. where you do feel like, hey, if I'm vulnerable, I might lose my job, I might have to go home. I might have to go home to a place that I actually haven't been to in ten years. And I don't know if I even have a house, you know, like, I don't know that I can afford rent in America right now or whatever. Like, I mean, there's, there's, there's issues that I think, you know, for cross cultural workers, there's a higher risk that they have, and I think it's important to recognize that there's a higher risk that they have in being able to be real, to not hide, you know?

>> Andy:

Yes.

>> Bernie Anderson:

and I think for leaders, they need to actually make that as easy as possible. Make it easy for the people that you work with to not hide, make, ah, it easy for them to be honest and to be real and to be human. and let them know that they're safe. and that getting help, because you're in counseling or because your children are in counseling doesn't mean that you're, you're, like, permanently broken and you're going to have to, you know, go home and, you know, get help. no, like, you can get help where you are, maybe, and that's okay, you know? So, recognizing that there is higher risk and for leaders to actually see that and have compassion and understanding and to help figure that out, I think is super important as well.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Well, and I know that there are some listeners that actually aren't themselves in. So support based work, and maybe you're on the end of partnering with people and supporting people that are living and working, on support. So even for them to remember and to just think through, like, in anything I've said, maybe offhand said, like, oh, I couldn't do what you were doing. Is there anything you're doing? Anything you're communicating m that's creating obstacles to. To transparency or to honesty, to being seen? And I think the other thing, you know, Bernie, as you were saying that, I mean, the reality is, and I'm not saying this to kind of scare or put a negative tone, but the reality is it might not work out well to be vulnerable. Sadly, it is possible to be vulnerable and to risk that and for people not to receive it well. And I think, man, I think that has a lot of nuance itself, right? I mean, I'm even thinking of on a morning where I'm feeling, well, I don't have a headache, I've got my to dos for the day, and I feel the energy to do them. And a kid walks in with a question out of the blue, and I'm able to be like, oh, you know, and respond totally fine. But maybe the next morning I've got a headache and I'm feeling a little tired and I didn't sleep well and all this stuff, and the kid comes in and asks a question and I'm kind of impatient with them. You know, like, we're just not, we're not static in the way we respond to things. And so it's possible that you might be vulnerable and risk something and people might not react well. But I think this is where we just, we continue to work for an audience of one and entrust ourselves to him and push through, you know, hard conversations or push through whatever has happened, maybe the disruption or rupture in a relationship, believing that actually the restrengthening of that or the repair of that could make it even stronger, you know, so you might hit some bumps, but then it might be better, you know, it's a good point.

>> Bernie Anderson:

So good.

>> Heather:

Well, I know that we're. We're coming close to our time, but what else stood out that we really want to make sure we talk about?

>> Bernie Anderson:

I know I. One of the things, Heather, that I just jotted down was that, I mean, I did end this. We've already kind of said this, but this kind of puts a punctuation mark on this whole podcast for me, is that humanization may be one of the most important concepts in our lives, as servants of God who raise funds. the. The imago day of that whole thing. Like, that is just. I don't know that that actually, in the day and age in which we live, that may be one of the most important concepts for us. and that was just something that I kind of, as I was listening to the podcast, that was. That was the big thing that I kind of wrote down at the end that, yeah, this is really important. Really important.

>> Heather:

Yeah. So, like, embracing and living into. I am made in the image of God, and sometimes that means I'm going to knock it out of the park and holding that intention with. And, like, I live in a body and a world that has been. That is currently under the weight of sin. Are you saying, like, humanization and holding both of those is true?

>> Bernie Anderson:

That's right.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that is clarity.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. I really did appreciate, even though in the actual conversation, it's towards the end, that we took that pull quote where she says, like, hey, being human isn't just our brokenness. Being human is also the beauty that is imbued in being imago dei. Right. I really appreciated that, because I. I think we can get stuck in thinking of our humanity only in the negative.

>> Andy:

That's a great point.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Cause we're new creations, too.

>> Heather:

Well, and we're saved, and we're being formed into the likeness of Christ, who was the God man. Perfectly sinless. So, yeah.

>> Andy:

Being sanctified.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Amen.

>> Heather:

Well, I know that it was just really fascinating to hear more about that survey, and I know that, Bernie, it sounds like global Trellis is going to be launching a podcast with even more content around that survey and some of the observations because of it. Correct, correct.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Yeah. Today, before this, our meeting here, I was kind of working on that. And, we hope sometime this summer, to get global trellis, the podcast launched. Some of the very first episodes are talking about the survey and really there's been a lot of work, Amy's been doing a lot of work in producing academic articles and I mean, it's actually becoming kind of a big deal because, organizations really need to hear this and, it's important data that has, far reaching implications. So, yes, a few, just kind of get on the, go to globaltrellist.com and get on the mailing list and you'll get information, as it is coming out. Like I said, sometime this summer is the plan.

>> Andy:

Awesome.

>> Heather:

Awesome. You know what that makes me think? Like, just thinking about organizations receiving this, maybe those statistics and things like that, feeling a little overwhelming, but it just, somebody in a creative group I was in recently said, maybe redemption is better than never having disruption. And I'm just, you know, even thinking back to ten minutes ago in this conversation, thinking about how you might be vulnerable and it might not go well, but if you push through that not going well might then move into, wow, this is better than it's ever been. and that's my hope for these organizations as they get this news. Maybe it will land and feel really disruptive, but hopefully that will bring redemption, that will bring open pathways of communication and support and really enable people to live freely before their supporters in their orgs and not feel like they have to hide.

>> Andy:

Isn't it always better to live in clarity and truth?

>> Heather:

Yeah, but it's hard when it doesn't feel right.

>> Andy:

Not comfortable, but feels better.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Cool. Well, Bernie, thank you so much for your time and just for the resources that you've shared with us, look forward to hearing more from the global trellis podcast and other offerings. You know, I know that the website has multiple ways of getting involved in, pursuing knowledge.

>> Andy:

So it's been great. Thanks, Bernie.

>> Bernie Anderson:

Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. I've enjoyed it.

>> Heather:

All right, and we'll catch you guys next time.

>> Andy:

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