It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

31. Pastor Josh Lindstrom on Endurance in Fundraising

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 3 • Episode 31

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In this episode, Heather and Andy welcome back Pastor Josh Lindstrom, teaching pastor at Woodman Valley Chapel, to discuss the critical theme of endurance in fundraising. Pastor Josh shares insights from his own ministry and the biblical story of Elijah, highlighting the importance of rest, perseverance, and trust in God’s provision.

From exploring the innovative "Year of Sabbath" at Woodman Valley Chapel to unpacking the highs and lows of Elijah’s journey, this episode dives deep into the spiritual and practical aspects of maintaining endurance in support-based ministry. Pastor Josh also addresses common struggles, such as the temptation to interpret negative circumstances as signs to give up, and offers practical advice on setting measurable goals and celebrating small victories.


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>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

The funny part, right, is that you can fixate on I need to raise this money, but you cannot even keep yourself alive till tomorrow. And so put it in perspective. That same God that's giving you oxygen, the same God that kept you safe getting to the office. We are actually way more dependent on him m than we recognize. And so, yes, fundraising feels like this is introducing a whole new level, but it's actually just giving you the opportunity to be closer to what we all should be feeling.

>> Heather:

Welcome to it's not about the money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather and together with my co host Andy, we look beyond the quick tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it, this is the place for you. Alright. Hey everybody. Welcome back to it's not about the money. So the reality of initial fundraising and support based living can start to take a toll through the highs and the lows. The ability to endure is a critical element of faithful and fruitful long term ministry. And our guest today is a fan favorite. You might recognize him from early in season two when he spoke about discerning your calling. Fun fact, actually. His episode is still the top downloaded episode we have to date. So we've invited Pastor Josh Lindstrom back again today to talk with us about endurance in fundraising. He serves as a teaching pastor at Woodman Valley Chapel in Colorado Springs. And Andy, take it from there.

>> Andy:

Well, Josh, welcome back to the show. It's so good to have you.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Thank you.

>> Andy:

It's been well over a year, I think, now since we've had you on last. Any big changes to Woodman in that.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Time or your life from a church standpoint? Things are rocking. We did a new thing this year, kind of called it a year of Sabbath and M. So every 7th week during the entire ministry year, we've essentially stopped all like weekly ministry. We'll have weekend services, but other than that, there's no students, there's no awana, there's, there's no Bible studies with the hope that people would have fine time now. And we want to connect with God, connect with others. And it was fun because when we first said it, I mean, some people were like, you know, we got to be doing stuff. We're faithful christians, we got it. We got to be at the church. but now that we're with three left, it's been really neat. So that's been kind of our fun experiment and it's been exciting.

>> Andy:

Yeah. That's awesome. Have you seen other churches do that, or is this kind of just a, leadership, like a woodman, inspired? Where'd that come from? I mean, obviously biblically.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah, it. Haven't seen any churches do it, which. It would have been easier to sell it if we'd seen an example of it before, but, no, it's something that we, we just were praying and thinking about. How can we kind of model that? Yeah, we got to work hard, but, there's a side of playing hard and giving yourself some rest, and, yeah, it would be a shame if someone was so busy with church stuff that they never had time alone with the Lord or maybe with someone cul de sac, you know? So trying to just, model that and enforce it a bit, it's been a fun experiment. So, we kind of joke that maybe in another seven years we'll do it right.

>> Andy:

So you're not done with it yet, but what are some of the wins that you've seen so far?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

It's given our staff some more time to be intentional with, with people in the church. Not preparing for events, but to actually connect one on one, with individuals has been nice. And it's been cool to see people in the church. When you put something up front like that, they start to value it. And so, particularly some guys that have come up to me and been like, hey, I've never really. You referenced taking a day of solitude. Like, what do you even do for a whole day? It's kind of given the freedom, I think, to talk about just slowing up. And so it's, I think it's been really healthy.

>> Andy:

Yeah. To model it from the front.

>> Heather:

Oh, totally. Well, and it's interesting because you hear, in regards to just having a sabbath weekly, you hear people say, oh, I don't know how I could do that. But then once they practice it, they start to long for that day to come. Like, I can't wait to get to the Sabbath. So I'm curious whether you've seen that, you know, people get to week five and they're like, oh, man, can't wait till week seven, you know?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah. At first it was, you know, so it's every 7th week, so the first one came and went, and I don't know if many people did anything different.

>> Heather:

Okay.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And then seven weeks later, we're like, we kind of gave little challenges. Like, maybe this, this week, maybe it's no television. You know, maybe it's, like, no social media. I tried to intentionally kind of model some stuff and, and now, you know, maybe the greatest thing is some of the people who thought it was the dumbest idea are the ones asking if we could continue.

>> Andy:

That's awesome.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah, because I think they are getting into that rhythm and enjoying it, so.

>> Heather:

Aren't we? Man, we are so often most resistant to those things that we most need formation in where that is such an invitation from the Lord, you know? Cool. Well, you know what? I'm wondering if this is going to pop up in our discussion about endurance, because I have a feeling that rest has a big part to play in that. Yeah. But so Josh, we have spent, I mean, many, many podcast hours talking about the story of Elijah from a variety of angles. And I know that you recently spoke at a conference on the story of Elijah, specifically around the concept of endurance. And I was wondering if you would mind just briefly sharing with us what are some of the lessons on endurance that we can learn from Elijah?

>> Andy:

The whole conference over again, please.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah, yeah, we'll just, let me grab my note. you know, I think, I think Elijah is a fascinating guy, because of his highs are sort of unparalleled. First guy ever in scripture to raise someone from the dead.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And his lows are sort of like lowest among the low. And what I think is beautiful is that you see in his story the natural side and then a sinful side. And when he had this remarkable face off with those prophets of Baal, huge victory. There's hundreds, 450 of them. And by all marks, we would say, you won, you did it. But then that one lady, she gets in his head and he runs.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And then he has his little servant who's with him, and he dismisses his servant. So now he's alone and he comes upon his little place in the wilderness. And the Lord sends an angel and it's food, it's m. Some water, and have a nap. There was no chastising. It's like, you're an idiot. What are you doing here? It's not who do you think you are, it's have a nap. And then what I think is beautiful is he wakes up and then it's like, have another nap.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Amen.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And he's just, he's spiritually, he's emotionally, he's physically drained. And the answer was, you need to unplug, you need a rest. But then he goes through that and he sort of persists and then he goes to that cave, and then the Lord's saying, what are you doing here? Elijah. And it had gone from, like, the natural understanding. I'm sending an angel. We're hooking you up to no angel present. And God's, what are you doing? And I think there's that tension between when am I, like, naturally inclined to just need to take a break that the Lord's going to give me? And when am I maybe wallowing and need to snap out of it and get back after it? And you don't often see that in one guy in such a compressed amount of time.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Yeah. Man, the story of Elijah is so fascinating because, like I said, we've talked about it so many times, but that is a completely new insight.

>> Andy:

Right? That's a different angle. Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. And I guess, you know, to kind of speak to that depleted state that he was in. I recently heard you say when God uses ordinary people to do extraordinary things, it takes a toll on the people doing them. And I'm curious, you know, how have you seen ministry and support based work take a toll on people?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Well, you know, even if we want to take out the extraordinary, I think it's true. When God does things through people and it's, like, epic, there's going to be a fall on the other side. And Spurgeon, referred to it, which was really always good from my heart. When I read him say it, he referred to a minister's fainting fits. And he talked about this idea that, like, after the preaching of the word, after you pour yourself out in ministry, it's God's going to make you feel a little down on purpose just to remind you you're not the one that did the extraordinary thing. M. You know, if we did extraordinary things, if the Lord used us in amazing ways and we always felt great, it's like, man, I'm really a gift to the kingdom. Look at all that I'm doing. And it's like the Lord sometimes intentionally lets us, feel that. That low side to remind us of he's the one that's doing the upside. And if you want to take out the extraordinary part of it, even if you just think of a knife, like, if you never sharpen the knife but you use it a lot, it's going to get dull. And so there has to be that, you're gonna. You will just become, I think, spiritually numb or dull if you're not taking time to care for yourself in it. And I think the degree to which the more you can kind of accomplish the, more you should probably expect and offsetting down bit.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

What are some of the reasons you think that people don't take a rest and don't kind of shift into a moment of maybe re honing, to use that same metaphor, to just take a break?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Positively, I guess. I think that there is, especially if we're going after kingdom work, there's always something you can do.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You know, there's always need there and so in a positive sense, it can be like, man, I just. One more night or just ah, if I just do this, like, there's, the need is always present and I think that that happens a lot negatively. I think there's some people who are just comfortable being busy and the slowing down. You know, it's amazing, you know, God says he gives his beloved sleep. You know, you're a fool to think that you can like get up early and stay up late, like, no, but I sometimes prefer to think that I can control things. And so I'm gonna keep puffing at it. I'm gonna keep pushing this thing up the hill instead of listening and trusting that he's, he's the one that can get me through it and really need my help.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Embracing your humanity.

>> Andy:

Yeah. This could be a similar question, but I'm wondering what part do expectations that we have on ourselves or maybe other people having us, what does that play in endurance?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You mean like, as it relates to endurance or our expectations we, have of how we shouldn't be facing endurance?

>> Andy:

Yes.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah. If God's in it, it should be easier, right? M. Like, I think a lot of people, even if they would, mentally recognize and not preach a health, wealth, prosperity gospel, there is a part of that that is actually, I think, in our hearts, even if mentally, we know that just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that's going to be like that. But then functionally, I think we sometimes operate with, because I'm doing this and it's good, it should be easier. And so I think their expectations that when then, when it's not, it's more than just a bad day. It becomes like a crisis of, could be a crisis of faith. It becomes a question of calling. and much like sometimes we've talked to some of our staff, like, if a guy, if someone wants to go be a soldier, like, you have to know at some point there's a potential you're going to be shot at. And if you're like, no, I don't want to be shot at, you probably should look to do something else, because soldiers are in a battle and they get shot at. And I think that we can go into things thinking, oh, I'm doing this for the Lord, he's going to be with me, which is true. I'm doing this for the Lord, it's going to go better. Not necessarily true. And so if you can reframe your mind to think, hey, it's a battle. In battles, people get hurt. In battle, people get wounded, then your expectation can actually become a positive. Right. Because you can be like, I'm actually not that bad.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Right.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You know, I'm just a little discouraged.

>> Andy:

Yeah, I expected the foxhole and like trench foot, right? Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And I'm just tired.

>> Andy:

Well, so digging into this a little bit deeper, maybe, I don't know, in your line of work or in this, in ministry, maybe it's common to hear things like, the Lord must be leading me away from x, y or z because of fill in the blank, negative circumstance. So, for example, the Lord is leading me away from Chevy's because I always have mine in the shop, or I think I'm supposed to leave my job because my coworkers drive me crazy, or the Lord's leading me away to another mission field because I can't plant a church, or, I haven't seen any fruit here. So I wonder, like, do we see people evaluating the will or pleasure of God based on how things are going in their lives?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

I mean, I certainly think that people do do that. I think that, you know, what I'd want to say when they're not feeling particularly down, because it could sound harsh if they are particularly down when you say it. But when Jesus called his dudes to follow, what did he say? Like, whoever would come after me, pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow me.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Which for them, hearing that the cross was literally nothing else than a call to physical death, excruciatingly painful physical death, deny yourself doesn't sound fun. He's going to ask you to do things you don't want to do and follow me. He could be leading you places you don't want to go. And our God is the same one who did not spare his own son. And so some of the metrics that we use for evaluating, if we were to apply those same things and give Jesus the same license, well, he wouldn't have gone to the cross, but it was the will of God for him to suffer, for the joy set before him. He endured the cross. And so we need to just at least be consistent you know, there can be certainly, I think, to be, to apply some wisdom to look at your situation. And if your coworkers are driving you crazy and then you're doing sinful things as a result, well, maybe you need to get out because you keep sinning, not because as a follower of Jesus, you shouldn't be in hard places.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And I think when we kind of take that filter of scripture, you know, you think of all the passages, I think, because where we live, it's also, you know, where I live here in Colorado Springs, you know, what can be a discouragement or a frustration would be awesome for brothers and sisters around the world. Like, you're shedding the shop again. You have a car.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You know, and so expectations are a dangerous game when we start measuring, ourselves by what our expectations are, not through that filter of scripture.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. So I guess to the point that you made, Josh, you know, in looking at Jesus, who is our example, obviously it was God's will that he suffer, that he endure for the joy set before him. Sometimes I think we can ask ourselves, can this really be part of God's will? Would he want these bad things for me? Does he care? And I'd love to hear you speak.

>> Andy:

To that in my situation.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

yeah. Or maybe with really avoidable things, because maybe somebody could argue, well, Jesus dying for us, that was unavoidable. That was his plan. But what about this horrific thing that happened to this child? Or what about my dad leaving my mom or something like that? You know, these things that maybe make it seem more difficult because it seems like it didn't have to be that way, you know?

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Hm.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

I think there's a few sides to that. And, you know, that cliche, you know, God wants us holy, he doesn't necessarily want us happy. And God does discipline those whom he loves. And I wish that I could learn through more pleasant means, but sometimes he uses those very hard things, to make us more like him. And when the goal is, if the goal is our happiness, then those things wouldn't be serving a purpose. But if the goal is our holiness, they can. but then the other thing to not neglect, is like, we have a real enemy who prowls around like a lion.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Looking for whom he can devour. And he's merciless. He would kill us with zero hesitation.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And he's doing it to get a God. Like he didn't really give a rip about us. It's. He's. He's locked in a battle with our creator. And so, not that every time, you know, and it's a fine line, right. Because it's not that every single time you go through something bad, God's doing it on purpose to grow you.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You know, in that sense. And it's not like everything that's bad was Satan ripping around a corner and taking a shot at you. But holding those both in tension can be really redemptive.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And back to that expectation idea. If I am doing something that's of the Lord, well, there's probably going to be some spiritual battle that's happening. And the nice thing is that even us not being able to have vision into the heavenly places, to know just exactly as what our take can be. The same scripture is littered with people who had to go through hard stuff. The history of the church and faithful followers that have gone before us that have gone through hard stuff. And he can use even the enemy's attacks for his purposes in our lives.

>> Andy:

Let's kind of flip it around a little bit. Do you think there are ever situations or cases where the Lord does speak to us through our circumstances and kind of try to reorient us?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

I think circumstances can at times indicate, like, where God's pushing. I just think that it's too easy a lever to reach for. Yeah, I've seen it a little bit in my own life. Others I've talked with, you know, typically the easy thing can be when it's hard. Well, that's God using circumstances to want me to get out. Whereas I sometimes think God would much rather probably do the opposite. When things are awesome and start separating your heart from something, then you know, you're not leaving anyone in allergens. It's actually going great. That might be the time that even you. And so my challenge would be to people is when we say, if we want to say circumstances can be used of the Lord, do you view those as only negative circumstances or you open them to be positive? A lot of times people, and I'll put this on your question, a lot of times I think people use it in the negative.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Very rarely do I see someone, you know, I'm just praying that she's the one and. Well, do you love her? I totally love her. She's amazing. Great girl. I want to spend every day with her. Well, do you think maybe that's going to take you away from your walk with the Lord? No one ever says that, you know, it's never. It's only when it's negative that we're like, maybe now God's speaking to you.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And let's speak through the megaphone of pain. God does speak through, circumstances, but I think it's got to be a little more broader than we sometimes limit it to.

>> Andy:

That's good.

>> Heather:

Yeah, well, and I wonder if it's because, like, culturally, we've kind of been formed to think that, like, if something's good, it's going well. Right? And that if something's not good, then there's a problem. And so I wonder if that just kind of like, if we've internalized that, and then when we come up against obstacles or roadblocks or, you know, when we're fundraising and the funds aren't coming in and we've passed our deadline or whatever, it just feels logical to think, oh, goodness, there must be a problem with me or with this venture or whatever. Right. And so I really do think that, especially when it comes to fundraising, I mean, I've known so many people that whether it's comparing themselves to somebody else raising funds, or whether it's just with their own expectation of what it should have looked like, or the expectation that has on them, if the provision God has brought is lower than what they expected it to be, I think it feels like a very natural, very natural to pull for the lever and be like, maybe I'm not supposed to do this. Maybe I got it wrong. As opposed to enduring the. I mean, we have a friend that just launched into her ministry last year after seven years. Seven years. That is endurance of fundraising. but that is not normal in terms of our cultural moment.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah, absolutely.

>> Heather:

So I guess with these concepts in mind and taking this conversation specifically to people enduring in their fundraising, I would just love to know, like, are there any practical ways, like habits or perspectives that you would desire to point people.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Towards to promote endurance as it relates particularly to fundraising? You're saying now, yes, I'm no expert on, like, the best methodology current with fundraising, but I do think that to have something that is measured and diligent is really important. And to set goals and targets that, yes, you want to have a financial goal, I understand that. But what is it that you're going to do to reach that goal and make that what you're going to do? The goal that you strive for week in, week out. And so, you know, if it's x amount of face to face meetings, if it's x amount of calls, if it's like, what, what can you control right. And do that and leave the rest. And so, like, more in my world, I have seen that, you know, there could be, you know, two churches, and one has got like a bunch of families that move in and the student ministry explodes because mom and dad chose the church. But that youth guy maybe never does anything but look successful. And then you could have another church and he's laboring and his group doesn't have the explosive growth, but he's really working hard and which would we say is more faithful in the eyes of God. M and a lot of this thinking came from. I know, I think we talked earlier about resources, like a book called liberating ministry from the success syndrome. I can't use. Yeah. Has been probably one of the most important books, to me personally, but, to kind of set up what am I going to do? What is like a full day's work or my half days work? What does my fundraising work look like? And do that and then unplug. Once you've done what you set out to do, then give yourself that space to let God do, his thing. If you think of the parable of sower, we often think of the soil and talk about people like, well, they're hard soil, or their good soil, or their rocky soil, but the point of the parable is actually that the sower just keeps throwing it.

>> Andy:

Yeah, exactly.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And his point is, you don't know where it's going to land. And if in fundraising, I mean, you got to figure out like, the motion's a little more complex than throwing seed, but what's that motion? And your job is to just do that motion over and over and over again, recognizing something it's going to hit, and sometimes it's not going to hit the same, and sometimes it might not feel like it, but your part is the tossing that seed around. And that's what I would sort of encourage where I've seen some people I know in their fundraising efforts, what's that frick, like fits and starts. Like, it can be like they're all in on it, and then they kind of get back to some other stuff, and then they're all in it again. And I would kind of like, advocate for a measured and diligent approach that has you doing your thing over and over.

>> Andy:

I like what you said. Yeah. Being focused on what you can control, that seems to carry directly over to ministry, and we've taught that before. And just how fundraising can be a formative moment for you, a formative season for you. To prepare you for what's next. Maybe it's not throwing seed, maybe it's sending newsletters or making calls and texts. And sometimes it feels very like I'm just doing 30, 40, 50 of these things a day. But, yeah, I can imagine that you, as a minister, you've learned to just focus on what you can control.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah. It's taken me a long time, and I don't know if I have a degree in it yet, but, yeah, I think the, you know, for me, the funny part, right, is that if a message goes poorly, it's the preacher wasn't good, and if it goes great, it was God. Yeah, well, yeah, we actually get to have. It can be. It doesn't have to be either or. Like, if God brings the increase, if I prepared, if I've prayed, if I planned. Yeah, I can go up there and if it goes amazing, well, I can't take credit for that. That's on the Lord.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

But if it goes poorly, I don't have to take ownership of that.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

It's on the Lord because you entered it.

>> Andy:

Yeah. The same in both circumstances. Yeah, yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And so, you know, I would tell someone to be of good cheer again, not measuring yourself week in, week out, but giving it some time. If you find some partners that are going to get behind you financially in an epic way, well, that's. That's the Lord's gift to you. Not, necessarily. You were so awesome. And if you kind of have a conversation and you get a few of them where it doesn't seem to be ending, where you want it to, that's okay. God knows what you need.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

He knows what you need before you ask.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

So don't be anxious, but be diligent.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Well, and it just really strikes me, goodness, how helpful it, it is to have the posture of just kind of whatever it is, whether it's fundraising or your work in ministry or whatever, to just have the posture that this is my work to do, whatever the outcome may be, I'm not in control of that, but I am, accountable to and I steward the work that I'm given to do. The call that I'm given to walk in.

>> Andy:

So important because so many people are laboring in fields with really hard soil. And that speaks to that endurance piece. It's just difficult when I think when you have a donor base that doesn't always get it, maybe if they don't, they're giving to something they would like to see some fruit. So I guess it would be helpful just to think through, like, how can we help a missionary communicate? I guess that, that disconnect, that sometimes the work is hard, sometimes it's not just how much I'm working. This is, the nature of where I am. I don't know if I have an answer for that.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

I think part of the answer is, and we notice it in church world, too, if you're not careful, you can find yourself in a church only putting up these awesome stories of God's faithfulness. Which are great, and they're encouraging, but they don't always happen that way. So we try to intentionally. Let's just get some ordinary routine faithfulness stories. And if you're kind of conditioning your supporters back home to just going all in on the conversion or all in on the miraculous, yeah, that's what people will look for. But if you can condition them on, like, man, I had a great morning. I babysat some, this lady's kids and had the sweetest. I was just praying over them, and I know that they don't, they're not hearing that, but mom wasn't there and the kid can't rat me out yet. And I was just praying over and I was thinking about what God might do with that. Yeah, suddenly it's actually more of an approachable story for the person back home because they're like, I could be praying over a kid. I could be part of God's kingdom that way. And yes, we want to celebrate the big conversion, but let's also talk about some of that routine stuff and celebrate those as wins.

>> Andy:

And then you're modeling just like you guys are modeling from the front, how to rest and how to Sabbath. You're modeling for your network back home, your community back home, how to do ministry in the day to day. And you don't have to be in a foreign country to do that, right?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Absolutely. And not to minimize that. It's ministry, fundraising. It is work. You talk about sending texts, you got 50 of them. Like, yeah, data entry at a church feels a lot like data entry at, at and t for sure. But doing that work, like, I always think of, I just said I always think of it and I can't remember the reference. I think it's like proverbs 20 615 ish. And the idea that, you know, he talks about the sluggard, buries his hand in the dish, but is too tired to bring the food to his mouth. I think it's a great image, particularly with fundraising, because we all will. he has the cattle on a thousand hills. God's not like, going looking for loans like he can provide, but we are called to engage in real work to get there. And real work is tiring. To get tiring, it requires endurance and rest.

>> Heather:

I think something else it requires is celebration or gratitude. I think that probably goes a long way to fuel endurance as well.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Mm. Yeah. Well, because we can be. You're right. Like, the widow's might has got to be a very frustrating idea for people who are looking to do fundraising. Right. Because you're like, that might actually isn't going to go very far for me. Yeah. M but it could be a tremendous gift on the part of the giver.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And God could be like, celebrating that faithfulness and we got to make sure like, hey, we are allowed to get excited about things. God gets excited about.

>> Andy:

Good. Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You have some senior at your church that's going to give you 20 a month, and you're thinking, that's, that's great, but that not moving the needle on my full on portfolio. But yeah, God's going to use it exponentially. God's going to do something in their life and, I get to be a part of what he's doing in their life.

>> Andy:

Right. It's. I, get to be a part of what God's doing in their lives. It's not, this whole thing isn't just about me.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Right.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Well, and honestly, like with the widows might or whatever, we never actually know how much it costs someone to give their yes. Like that person that's giving you, I don't know, a gift of 20 grand or something, that yes, might feel like a very small sacrifice to them, whereas someone else that's giving you $100 a month or something, that yes might be of such consequence to them.

>> Andy:

And very sacrificial.

>> Heather:

Very sacrificial. And just like, so beautiful. I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying that a large gift, not sacrificially, isn't beautiful. It is not to diminish that, but just to just reflect on. We never know what a, yes has cost somebody and how much glory that does bring to the father in heaven, you know?

>> Andy:

And how dare we celebrate it less than God does.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And any follower of Jesus is called to be a part of his work. And so when you're sharing your story to somebody, you're giving an opportunity to engage in something, God's asking them to do it's not just about you getting what you want to do. If someone feels like, hey, God's called me, I'm going to be living in Des Moines and I'm going to be working. Like, you still need to be part of what God's doing. You're giving opportunity for them to be involved.

>> Andy:

Yeah. Well, going back to Elijah, the Lord directed Elijah to the widow, but he also directed the widow to Elijah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Heather:

It was of consequence for him to come into her life. Yeah, yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And unexpected. Cause she wasn't a jew.

>> Andy:

Right, right.

>> Heather:

You know, Josh, one final idea I wanted to bring into this conversation again from having opportunity recently to hear you speak is you said people must believe that our God is able to and interested in helping them. I would love to hear you apply that to fundraising.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Fundraising. We think as someone who's like crowdsourcing to try, they got a new product they want to bring to the market and so they're going to like try to get people to give and they think that people should give because they have a great idea and they could get a little piece of the profit. And that's awesome. And I'm sure we have amazing products now that started that way. This product, though, is of eternal value. Hm. And why would we not think that God's interested in that? And you have sometimes corporate people, business people, salespeople on fire for the Lord believing that God wants to bless us, that I can use these resources. You know, like there are christian businessmen and businesswomen out there who really see what they do as their ministry or provision. Why would we not think that God wouldn't be interested in the front line worker who's actually in that trench fighting that battle. And you know, I just cannot imagine, you know, and this is where it, I think we talked about it. It was a while ago. Right. But like, God's will, I just don't imagine someone getting to heaven and being like, lord, I just took that great commission seriously and I wanted to go. And him being like, why would you think I wanted you to do that?

>> Andy:

Wanted you to go, yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

M, because you said it so many times.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And God is able and he is interested in us. When we want to take that step of faith, he loves it. And we talked in our church recently that, you know, a lot of families, moms and dads, young parents, they will celebrate and go googly eyed and record those babies first steps. And rightly so. How fun to watch them take their first steps. But it doesn't stop. The parents want to think that those steps are going to turn into a walk, that walk into jumps, that jumps into run. And mom, and dad are for them the entire way. And why would not our heavenly father m rejoice in seeing us take that step and then want to come alongside us to see us grow in it? And if there is some thought that he wouldn't be, I mean, with deference to our Lord, he could have been more clear. Right. Because there's nothing that would indicate that that's ever going to be his response to us. He's for us. He longs for none to perish.

>> Andy:

M amen.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And if you're going to give yourself to it, I would rest in that. And don't pull yourself out of the game two minutes into the first quarter.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. It feels like if we could just really focus on keeping that view, what is true about God and his character and his purposes and stop kind of, I don't know, getting our focus down and trying to assign meaning to our disruption or obstacles and try to extrapolate from that what God must want and just like, keep our eyes on God and who he is. I mean, I'm making it sound very simple. I mean, I guess it is simple. Not easy, right? We're constantly distracted by meaning making of all the stuff in our life, but.

>> Andy:

Well, it's like we're still trying to read the omens. M we're trying to read the tea leaves in our circumstances.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

As we're wrapping up here, what are some things that we can leave with people, I guess, who are some of, like, the faithful heroes, maybe, that you would point folks to, people who could teach us something about endurance and then maybe associated with that. Like, what are some resources that we can direct people to as well?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

you know, you know, you guys know I'm a pastor, so I don't want to be, oh, he's talking about the Bible again. But I think if people can go back to the Bible and make note of dates and not just go from chapter to chapter. M like Moses really obviously felt like he had to stand up for his people and then had a little too much heat on his past and. And killed a man. Right.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And then he was 40 years in the desert and he never, even at the end of that, got his own sheep. Like, he's 80 years old. And then it says that he was still watching his father in law's sheep. Yeah, 40 years is a long time. And I think if you've applied some of our circumstantial worldview to Moses at 78. I think he could have made a case. I threw it all away. I've been here for 38 years and nothing has changed. And he still had two more years before the burning bush.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You think of David and he's told he's going to be king of Israel. He's anointed, he's chased by Saul, he refuses to lash out. His anointed Saul ends up being killed. And it's fascinating to me. He gets anointed, he's king in Hebron for another seven years before he gets the entire kingdom. Yeah, seven years. Surely he knew what he had been told, but it was still another seven years. And Jesus, you know, he started his earthly ministry around 30. He was probably a pretty decent preacher at 26. M. Why didn't our Lord start at 27 and give us six years of public ministry to reflect back on? M and I think sometimes when we wrestle with the idea of endurance, we say it's a need for endurance, but sometimes it's just patience. And the Lord takes a long time and you can go from the end of the Old Testament to the New Testament and forget it was like, what, 430 years? Like in between those two books.

>> Heather:

Yeah, right.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You're thinking you're waiting for the messiah. He had a long way off and he was from our perspective. But God is faithful to all his promises. And so I certainly think that scripture can do a tremendous illuminating job. But then I think if you also ask people for all that this happens in church world, like the new church opens up and they got 78,000 people one weekend. Great. That's not normative for most churches.

>> Andy:

No.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

And I think if you were to just start talking to people about what got them to where they are, most people are going to detail a much longer journey than we expected. And so if you're wrestling, you're trying to raise support, you know, talk to your, talk to your parents about the, before they got that house we look at like they got that nice big house. Well, did they get it right out of the gate? Talk about the steps it took to get there. Talk to your teacher, talk to, talk to people and ask them stories about time. Talk to them about the length of time it took them to achieve the thing that you think it's taken so long to do in your own life.

>> Andy:

We have this unhelpful cultural phenomenon that we like to see and recognize in other people. We say, well, that guy is an overnight success. But in reality, we don't see all the stuff that happened. Like, I think it's. I could be misquoting it, but it's like Malcolm Gladwell in the tipping point talks about the Beatles, the prime example, how successful they are, seemingly right out of the gate. But what they don't know is that they had this season of I don't know how long it was and I'm getting the geography mixed up, but I think it was like Germany and they're playing in pubs or whatever, and they just had to play every night over this certain amount of time. And they just got all these repetitions together and it feels like it was overnight, but actually they just put in the hours.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah, you got that little guy, Zacchaeus looking for Jesus, and Jesus has come down. I'm dying at your house tonight. And within an evening he's given away. He's going to, was it fourfold to anyone. He's defrauded and give away half of his possessions. Pretty remarkable quick turnaround.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah, true.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

But then you have Joseph of Arimathea, who is secretly a follower of Jesus and doesn't decide to go public until Jesus has been killed. Yeah, obviously took time. Which do we celebrate more? I mean, God does his thing and in ministry you could see something that seems to go quick, but I think, and that's awesome. We rejoice in it. But more often than not, if you look at scripture, the quick isn't always as quick as we think.

>> Andy:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

It's much more onto the developmental side of. Why don't you follow me?

>> Andy:

Yeah. And that's hard when we've compressed thousands and thousands of years of biblical and just human history into the pages of this book.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

It'S a good encouragement.

>> Heather:

Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of encouragement, what else, Pastor Josh, would you want to say to our listeners as they endure in the ups and downs of support based ministry?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Well, don't give up too quickly. It's a lot safer to encourage someone who wants to go and do this than it's someone who, say, wants to go and make a ton of money to give to this, because if you ton of money, you know that there's a lot that could challenge you and tempt you to get out of it. And so I'd be more hesitant to tell someone who wants to be wealthy so they can give to pursue that path than I would to tell someone who needs to depend on the support of others to go do their path. M one's going to formulate and create a dependency that's of the Lord and is actually much more closer to our daily life. And I've never. I've had seasons where I've had to do fundraising, you know, church planting and whatnot. And again, I'm not in it now, so it's easier said than done. But the funny part, right, is that you can fixate on, I need to raise this money, but you cannot even keep yourself alive till tomorrow. M and so put it in perspective. That same God that's giving you oxygen, the same God that kept you safe getting to the office, the same God that, like, we are actually way more dependent on him than we recognize. And so, yes, fundraising feels like this is introducing a whole new level, but it's actually just giving you the opportunity to be closer to what we all should be feeling.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Yeah. You know, anything that brings us closer to that realization.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

Yeah, it's helpful.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And actually really restful to sit, in. In that you've lost the pretense of control. It can be really freeing to sit back into. God is the one sustaining my life.

>> Andy:

Yeah. And it's always a pretense.

>> Heather:

It's always pretense. Yeah. Well, since you've been on the show before, we changed up our final question for you. You're the only person getting this question, but I think it's fun. So let's say you have to choose a theme song that plays every time you walk into a room today. What is your theme song for today, and why?

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

That's hard because I like a lot of songs. So I think, you know, I was with, some of our friends, and I referenced a son of song endorsed by, the elders of our church by an old group called Chumba Wamba, you know, tub thumping. And it's just basically repetitive. Like, I get knocked down but I get up again oh, yeah, you're never going to keep me down so. And it's hype. So if you're walking into the room wanting to make an entrance, that would be, you know, pretty good.

>> Andy:

You're never going to keep me down that's right.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

You're never going to keep me down. But I think the song that I go to more when I am lacking endurance is a song called Guiding Light by Foy Vance. And, that idea that, like, the road can be long, there's water on either side, but, like, there's that light that we're going towards. And in the end, that that's it, you know, like, I got to keep walking because, I'm one day closer m. And you called is faithful, and he's asked me to follow him, and so I just got to keep walking after it. But if you listen to it, it's not a hype song, but I'll tell you, when I'm in need of endurance that way more plays than it has than jumbo wumba.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Well, Josh, what a pleasure to have you back on. Thank you so much for your time and for this rich encouragement.

>> Andy:

Yeah, appreciate it.

>> Pastor Josh Lindstrom:

It's a privilege. Thanks, guys.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

All right. We'll catch you next time.

>> Andy:

It's not about the money. Presented by provisio fundraising solutions, provisio equips, support based workers with flexible training, practical resources, and one on one coaching. Find out more@provisiofundraising.com dot.