It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

31.5 RECAP with Dr. Mandy

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 3 • Episode 31

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In this episode of "It's Not About the Money," Heather and Andy are joined by Dr. Mandy, a newly minted Doctor of Education in Organizational Change and Leadership from the University of Southern California. Together, they recap the insightful conversation with Josh Lindstrom, focusing on themes of endurance, intentional rest, and the nuanced challenges of support-based ministry.

Dr. Mandy shares her extensive experience from 20 years in overseas support-based work, discussing the importance of "heartitude"—an attitude of the heart—in organizational change. She also delves into her doctoral research on the impact of COVID on Christian cross-cultural workers in China, highlighting the need for organizational resilience in times of global crises.

The episode explores the concept of Sabbath, both as a community practice and a personal discipline, and how intentional rest can be crucial for sustained ministry. Heather, Andy, and Mandy discuss the balance between overwork and surrender, the importance of communicating with supporters, and the often-overlooked ministry in mundane, everyday actions.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own practices of rest and intentionality in their work, and to consider how they can better support themselves and others in seasons of endurance.

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>> Heather:

Welcome to it's not about the money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather and together with my co host, Andy, we look beyond the quick tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it, this is the place for you.

>> Andy:

Welcome back to the show, everyone. so excited to have a guest with us today to help us cap the Josh Lindstrom episode. And he's the only guest that we've brought back so far.

>> Heather:

Actually not true. Carissa has come back a couple of.

>> Andy:

Times as a recapper.

>> Heather:

That's true.

>> Andy:

Okay. The only guest that we've brought back as our main speaker.

>> Heather:

Hm.

>> Andy:

So far, just because, like we mentioned in the podcast, our number one listen to episode. So he had some great things to say about endurance and, looking forward to welcoming Doctor Mandy, newly minted Doctor Mandy. Heather, would you introduce our guest?

>> Heather:

Absolutely. So, as you said, mandy is coming, to us today. Actually, she is stateside currently, but has spent a significant amount of the past 20 years in overseas support based ministry. And, yeah, we're excited to have her joining us today to talk about her own experiences in coming up on seasons of endurance. And, you know, part of her overseas roles have put her into leadership over teams as well as regions. So no doubt she has experienced these seasons in the lives of those that she has cared for and led. So, Mandy, thank you so much for joining us on the show, and I would love to hear more about what that doctorate is.

>> Mandy:

Oh, thank you. Yes. So, I received my doctorate of Education in organizational Change and Leadership, last year from the University of Southern California. And ultimately, it's on helping with strategies and systems and looking at where organizations and companies and fellowships might be and how to give them hope for a future. it's really funny, though, because I went to a school that, is honestly doesn't have a lot of hope in their curriculum. and so I was definitely an outstanding in a lot of conversations when, you know, I was thinking about this endurance and fundraising and thinking through conversations I had with people who are trying to reinitiate and remake systems and structures within government organizations as well as school systems and things like that. And, very rarely did any of it come down to a change of heart. It was all a change of system. And so I think the difference in probably my direction, even in my dissertation, was, a harditude, is what I like to call it, an attitude of the heart. that's where things are going to start to change before we see changes in systems and structures. We can build systems, we can build structures. But the reality is we're sinful people, and they're going to always be imperfect, and no one is ever going to be fully satisfied with them because they were made by man. but we can be fully satisfied in Christ. And so we have to start with the attitude of the heartitude before we can change, before we can actually see joy in systems and structures. I think so. yeah, so I did my doctoral dissertation on the impact of COVID on christian cross cultural workers in China, and I did qualitative research speaking with workers who were in China prior to Covid, who had experienced Covid in China, as well as what that did to their positions in China. And so, some of them had returned, some of them had not. and just thinking through, honestly the resiliency for organizations and giving from the workers perspective what it would take for an organization to keep them if another world, trauma, pandemic, tragedy, crisis were to come forward.

>> Andy:

So organizational endurance. Yeah, just got our doctorate.

>> Mandy:

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

>> Heather:

Well, and that's. That just sounds like such timely and helpful insight, because, I mean, you never know what might happen, and it just seems prudent to try to be just prepared to steward people well and to meet them in their needs and. Yeah, so thank you for doing that.

>> Andy:

And I even wondered, domestically, how many churches are prepared, for succession, for someone to take the reins after a head pastor or whatever is ready to.

>> Heather:

Retire, or, you know, even domestically, how many churches were prepared for what Covid would mean for ongoing church life. I think the american church is still recovering, for sure. Yeah.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

So thank you for sharing about that, Mandy. I'm also curious. I know that you have been in support based work for about 20 years. I'm curious whether that's been with one company in one location or if that's been a myriad of experiences for you.

>> Mandy:

Yeah, it's actually a myriad. I started with a mobilization organization from Texas to Colorado. I was living on support in Colorado, which is nuts. I even had one person ask me, because Texas thinks Colorado is its playground. And so, And that's an issue of pride we have down here. So just hold ah it loosely. I had one guy, I remember very distinctly, he said, so you want me to support you to live in Colorado in the playground? He could not grasp, and he didn't quite get the why behind it. So, yes, so that was the first. And then I worked for another organization. and I was still raising support and that was focused solely on East Asia. And then third company is the one I'm currently with. So, yes, I've been with three. The first one, unfortunately, actually went bankrupt and I lost all my support. That was, that I had held. That was really tough.

>> Andy:

Worst case scenario.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Mandy:

The second one, it had just a very different perspective on how to raise funds and what not to say. Actually, it's, it's, at the time, it's changed a little bit now, from what I understand, but at the time, the organization prefer us not ask for money at all.

>> Andy:

Okay.

>> Mandy:

And so we were to raise support solely on faith without even giving explanation, without ever asking for a dime.

>> Andy:

But Mandy, you would reach out to people in the same way. I'm guessing you would send, them newsletters or sit down with them face to face, but you just wouldn't say, would you think about supporting me?

>> Mandy:

Absolutely. Yeah, we did. We sent newsletters, we would do presentations and homes and fellowships, and they were always constantly on us about raising, but we never once said, would you consider, we never asked once, would you fund me?

>> Andy:

I've met people like that and the question that I always have is why? Why are we drawing the line right there?

>> Heather:

Good question.

>> Mandy:

I don't know, I think some of that even comes from very, an old tradition, you know, I think it was Mueller. It was, yeah, well, Mueller had, I think had definitely had an influence in that. and I would say too, just like old, old cross cultural workers like Hudson, Taylor, Adniram, Judson, those guys, they, I don't think they asked for support and I think there was different, they had different reasons, but I also think it was a different time. Yeah. so, yeah, yeah.

>> Heather:

Well, great. Thank you so much for giving us a little bit of insight into your journey. And I'm excited for this conversation to come. So, guys, in thinking about the episode we had with Josh on endurance, what stood out?

>> Mandy:

Can we just first just talk about Woodman's Sabbath? Year of Sabbath.

>> Heather:

Yes. So cool.

>> Mandy:

I, you know, I was thinking about, Sabbath is no easy thing. To do, to live in. And I would even dare to say that becoming disciplined in Sabbath takes, you have to endure some hardship to even get to a place of being a disciplined Sabbath taker. I know it has for me, and so I just really appreciated that the fellowship that Josh leads just did it as a body. And I'm sure it wasn't easy for all of them, but, yeah, so much intentionality is needed in taking Sabbath. It's needed. And raising funds. It's just. Intentionality is just needed in being a disciple of Jesus. Right? Like, period.

>> Heather:

So, yeah, absolutely.

>> Mandy:

I was really proud of them for doing that and making it a necessary.

>> Heather:

Mm

>> Mandy:

I, so I, I also actually was at one of the conferences where Josh talked about Elijah and endurance, and where he's talking about, Elijah losing his focus. You know, what stood out to me in that and thinking through, especially through fundraising, because I'm definitely talking to myself here. I would say that we lose our focus sometimes when we're fundraising. I do where my focus becomes more on the fundraising, not the why, even m though I'm telling people why I need the funds. I'm telling people what it is to do, what it is to be a partner with me in this work. But my focus on the why is constantly being neglected. And what I mean by that is often I am praying more for the funds than I am for the nation or the people. or honestly, just not resting in what he would have for me in that moment, even. It's more of, I go with this agenda of fundraising, and I need to hit these check marks. I don't think that's necessarily bad, but if I'm doing it without having first sat in rest with him and really, praying to the father on the behalf of the things, the why of why I'm fundraising, I think I'm missing maybe even some real blessings from the lord.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Mandy:

And Josh, Josh was just, I really appreciate Josh reminding us during his talk on endurance, at least at the conference, that we are constantly in a spiritual battle. Like, it doesn't stop.

>> Andy:

Right?

>> Mandy:

And so, and this just, it reminds me, actually of a story that my dad told me about, a pastor that came out of Houston. His name is doctor Ed Young, and he's a pastor in the early nineties. Pastor Young or doctor Young, he stood up against the Texas government because they were trying to put the lottery in Texas.

>> Andy:

Okay.

>> Mandy:

And the christian community did not want it. And Ed Young, along with, a couple others, were standing up, and he was probably one of the only, like, mega church pastors at the time that actually was making a ruckus and trying to fight against it. And ultimately the state won the vote. And, so anyway, after the vote, this, local news agency or local news station interviewed doctor Young, and the journalist said something like, so how do you feel about losing? And Doctor Young, he sort of chuckled, then he shook his head and he said something to the tune of we haven't lost anything, he said. We may have lost this battle, but our victory has already been won. And so we're just fighting in obedience. The battle the Lord places in front of us. The state won the vote, but we haven't lost anything. And I think about that, of that perspective that doctor Young had in that he knew the why it didn't matter the outcome.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Mandy:

And I know for me that's like, if I don't get funding at something, sometimes I'm a little discouraged. But when it comes back to the why, it doesn't matter. Because even my prayers are more powerful than my presence in a country. And so if I'm being postured to really keep my eyes on the why, that's prayer in Jesus and me getting there is a good idea. Obviously, it's what he would have for me. But even when and how, it's less important than, the why. And so that's something that really stuck out to me when Josh was talking about the focus of Elijah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And I guess what you just said reminds me even of when Josh brought up the parable of the sower and how we think the point is what kind of soil it's landing on. Whereas there's an invitation to see that the sower just keeps sowing and that his work is to just keep sowing. So, yeah, that comes to mind with what you just said.

>> Andy:

And it makes me think too, of the flip side of the argument I was trying to make earlier, that maybe one of the benefits of not asking directly for money is that you can't help but be focused on the why more than the bottom line. I think the part that stood out to me, honestly, was early on. Cause I resonated with it. Like, sometimes you just need a snack and a couple of naps.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Mandy:

So true.

>> Andy:

It's so true. And like, don't make decisions when you're tired and hangry.

>> Heather:

Well, yeah. And it reminds me of the episode we recently released with Amy Young just talking about your humanity in fundraising.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Heather:

Gosh, that's such a human thing. And it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing that we are dependent on rest and sustenance and that those things are actually reviving to us.

>> Andy:

Those limitations are part of our design.

>> Heather:

Yeah, they are.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah. they're just one way that we're formed into understanding that we're not like all sufficient. M. You know something else that I was reminded of from the episode, from what you said Mandy is just, you know, you said that in the conference, he drew out the point that we are always in a battle. And I did appreciate in our conversation with him, just as he was holding the tension of, you're going to come up on difficult circumstances, and you should not necessarily be disheartened by that, because you are in a battle. And sometimes that is an invitation to. Or it's always, I guess, an invitation to formation. Sometimes it might be the, Lord's care in leading you through something, and sometimes it might just be straight up opposition, from the enemy and holding those intention. I think he spoke really well to that.

>> Andy:

And I liked his analogy. Like, don't sign up to be a soldier if you aren't ready to be shot at.

>> Heather:

Yeah, I think that's helpful and just helpful to be reminded, like, oh, yeah, it is normal to come up on disruption and obstacles.

>> Andy:

Absolutely.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Mandy:

Well, you know, I really appreciated that, too. And the question of Josh saying, if God's in it, it should be easier. Right. And I just appreciated that because I was teaching a lesson recently, on God's promises of blessing from Genesis. And, I had to emphasize the blessings that he gave to Abram in Genesis twelve. But, And those were awesome. Like, I'm so grateful for those blessings that he was giving Abraham, but they never once said that they would come without suffering those blessings. Nor more. Were there a lot of details other than God saying, go to the land, I will show you. It wasn't even specific yet at that point where he was going, start walking. And then. Yeah, and then when you jump to Genesis 15, Abram had just won this little war, and God tells him he's going to make descendant, you know, his descendants, uncountable. Like, uncountable, like the stars. And you're just going, whoa. But that wasn't going to come about easily. And we all know the case that somehow we often forget and just expect that because God told us something. He told us to go to a place. He told us he's going to provide for us to get there, that we're going to get the outcome without having to endure the hardship in the process. And then when the hardship comes, we end up taking our eyes off of him. And that's. I know. I've done that, multiple times. but you're right. I did appreciate that, too. It's not just easier because the Lord told us it was what we were going to do.

>> Andy:

Right?

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

I think I resonated, too with this idea. How do we know when we just need this nap? Or how do we know that the Lord isn't asking us to push through? We have back to back this example of God leading Elijah to rest, but then also, don't wallow in the cave and just kind of be in your misery looking for and kind of feeling sorry for yourself. I feel like much of life is maybe about finding that balance in this case, like, you have on one side, the overwork and the burnout on the other side, maybe, though, you have, like, the fear and the hiding and, like, the abandoning of a mission. So I guess I'm wondering, mandy, like, you've been in a lot of different contexts on the field, and have you seen any of these scenarios play out like this where.

>> Mandy:

Where people just give up? Is that what you're asking?

>> Andy:

Yeah. Have you seen them? I guess. Have you seen them wrestle with it, with that dichotomy or, have those questions?

>> Mandy:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You have some people who are working so hard to get that. That funding. You know, they get the funding to get on the field, and then they get to the field, and the funding drops off, and, And some of them end up. It becomes such a burden that they burn out, even though. And they burn out more because of the funding that's not yet there than the work they're doing. Right. So they allow things to burden them. They allow fundraising to burden them to the place of. I got to quit this now because this isn't the way I had it planned, or my partners aren't participating like I thought they would. And if that were the case, you know, I personally would have quit a long time ago if that were. That were necessary. So you have. You have to learn to connect with people when you're at a place where you can connect with people. And I know. I know there have been times, like. Like, for me personally, I've been in the States now for almost two years, which was never my expectation. And I took a six month Sabbath or sabbatical, I guess, and I told my. My people, I'm not gonna. I'm probably not gonna write to you in six months, and I just need you to know that. And that was really helpful for me to not have to think about what I'm writing, not have to think about telling them where I'm at. And then people would call and just check on me, and I appreciated it, but I didn't have to get out newsletters for those six months because I told people I wasn't connecting, I was taking time off. And that was helpful. We don't learn to, like, intentionally take those Sabbath breaks. We're going to quit way before it's necessary, right. If we don't take those rests, if we don't take those snacks. And. And I think part of that, too, is something that I've found is I read a lot of books on Sabbath, and I look at what people are saying to do, and then I look at the word of God, and I look at how Jesus did it, and, it wasn't quite as extravagant as how Mandy wants to do it. You know, Sabbath was. Sometimes Sabbath was just an hour in the morning. I mean, he obviously took Sabbath because he was a jew, and they, they took a holy day, right? But Jesus, in the midst of everything he did, he just took an hour here and an hour there. And that. That, in and of itself, is a discipline, right?

>> Heather:

because.

>> Mandy:

Yeah, because somebody's going to text you, or somebody's going to need you, and you have to learn how to. How to build that into your life. And that even goes into that second, thessalonians, like, pray without ceasing. You build that into your life. M and that takes intentionality. And I think even, like, when we're fundraising or when we're. Whether we're on the field fundraising and trying to get people, you think, oh, I'll get there, and I'll have stories to tell. And then I know Josh pointed this out, too, and I really appreciated that, where he pointed out, you know, this kid or something about a babysitter, and working with a babysitter that day and just talking about the time of prayer there, that really resonated with me, because I'm constantly looking for these experiences that are so, that are worth writing about and telling people about, whether that's in a video or. Or a newsletter. And I really appreciated hearing from him that as a reader of new, of people's newsletters, he just wants to hear what we're doing, in connecting with the Lord, not so much of how many people we saw dunked one day. Not that that's not something to celebrate, but it doesn't stop there. And I wonder if we end up surrendering the wrong things when we're on the field because of finances. M and what I mean by that is, like, are we sacrificing versus surrendering? Are we sacrificing our holy times in a good way for the sake of trying to raise funds? M or are we surrendering our fundraising so that we can have time with the Lord? Like, so there's like this. And so the sacrifice of our time with him is actually hurting us. Whereas if we were to surrender our funding to him so that we had time with him, it would be helping us. And so I'm thinking about people who literally lost their way because the burden of fundraising, they ended up sacrificing what God could have done in them and through them, because they were too burdened by it.

>> Andy:

M and maybe it's harder for those of us who are, like, high activators, highly responsible. Like, we have this idea of, like, this american efficiency that we bring with us from our home culture to the field, and we think that, man, just sitting and being still feels like a spiritual blessing, but it's not actually getting the work done. So I gotta. I gotta focus somewhere else.

>> Heather:

Yeah, very true. Yeah, man, there's so, so many, so many things from what you just said, mandy, but I guess kind of going back to the very beginning of when you were identifying that you took a sabbatical and that for six months, you kind of prepped your partners to not hear from you, I just wanted to point out that I think that is really wonderful. I'm grateful that you had that kind of freedom and rest, and I think that was probably possible because that was front loaded or not necessarily front loaded, but that was preceded by communication. Right. Like, for years, they've heard from you, you've communicated, you've done the work of building trust, so that when you get to a point where you say, hey, you're not going to hear from me, there's been a lot of work to bring you to that point. You see what I'm saying? And that reminds me of just a comment that Josh made. He said that we're called to engage in real work to get there, and real work is tiring. It's just good to see.

>> Mandy:

Yes.

>> Heather:

You know, fundraising is really tiring work. It's diligence. I mean, communication with people. It's. It is. It is work. But that work bears out in opportunity to rest, you know, in that developed rapport and in that mutual respect and things like that.

>> Andy:

Yeah, we have the license to rest from that work as well.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

And actually, the expectation that we do.

>> Heather:

Yeah. But also, it probably would have felt very different to Mandy's partners if she hadn't had a pattern of communicating with them, and then all of a sudden went, dark for several months. Right. I'm just pointing to the really good, hard work that led up to that kind of trust and.

>> Andy:

Sure. Right.

>> Heather:

Freedom. Yeah. I also really appreciated you commenting on how Josh talked about the beauty and the gospel work that's being done in somebody babysitting and praying over those kids. Right. Like, just, just acclimating your partners to see the beauty in the mundane. And honestly, just kind of normalizing that the lives they find themselves in are rich with opportunities for gospel work, you know?

>> Mandy:

Absolutely. And I, you know, like, it really resonated with me because when I became a leader in the organization that I'm currently in, and I began working with colleagues in my field more than like, the local people, because as a leader, I definitely had local relationships, but I wasn't, I wasn't out with new people on a regular basis. you know, I struggled to know what to write to partners back home. And honestly, at times there were things that were very difficult when you're dealing with people. I mean, we might be workers overseas, but we're still sinful people. and we have to deal with the lives of the cross cultural workers. Trying to live their lives out in obedience, that's no easy task. But that's not always something I can write about, especially because oftentimes it was other people's stories to tell, not my own.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Mandy:

And, so, I had to learn to be really intentional about writing down and taking note of the small things, the small good things that happened. I literally would, like leave a voicemail or do a voice message to myself on my phone when just even when a student or an old friend would meet me, meet me for a coffee and just talk about that, that conversation. Just try to find highlights for that because I need, I wanted to tell people about it. So I really appreciated what Josh said about sharing the babysitter story. I need to think more about those sweet times with the father as worthy of sharing too, like how to make day to day life approachable to the reader and listen. M and I just appreciate that Josh is one who reads and hears these things. And so that gives me insight to go, oh, if he likes that, maybe others would be willing to. That would be okay for me to write to others as well. So that was really good for me. Just recognizing too, I think that even comes down to that. With, it's a theology of work that comes right in, helping people recognize their part in play, in what they play, wherever they are, whatever they're doing as well.

>> Heather:

Yeah, because, you know, he made another comment. I think it was actually in relation to the widow's might and celebrating what God celebrates. And even if it's a seemingly small amount, maybe it doesn't move your profile along very much. How actually, like, in God's sight, there was obedience, and that is, I mean, he took loaves and fishes and multiplied them beyond what we could imagine. Right. So he. He certainly celebrates even the smallest of gifts and to kind of translate it away from, you know, money and thinking about the way we look at ministry, it really. We can be very quick to diminish things that are very much ministry, but not consider them as such, because they're not. They don't look like this or they're not. You know, I heard you say that when you pivoted from working with local people to colleagues that you felt a little bit of the difference. And how will I communicate this? And I'm just, you know, in my own life, sometimes I catch myself diminishing the ministry and role I have as mom, thinking, goodness, I need to be doing more, investing in other women, or I need to be, you know, stepping into this ministry that's seeking people. So I think we can just be quick to not see things as ministry when they're absolutely the Lord's portion and ask of our ministry right now, you know?

>> Mandy:

Absolutely.

>> Andy:

And I feel like that's something that is unique that a missionary can bring to the table because we're expecting to hear stories of success and good things. That's not something that we typically talk about in the normal kind of american church, in my experience. Like, we're not running, like, newsletter updates to each other.

>> Heather:

Right, right.

>> Andy:

But, if a field worker, if a missionary can normalize and even celebrate these micro wins and these little steps of faithfulness and model that for everybody else, I think that can be a really helpful way to minister to everybody else.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And I guess back to another recap that we had with Bernie recently. It shows that people in support based work aren't, like, superhuman doing superhuman things.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Heather:

They're also normal people trying to be obedient to Jesus. Yeah.

>> Andy:

He talked about something from spurgeon early on where spiritual.

>> Heather:

Oh, yeah, the fainting fits.

>> Andy:

Yeah, the fainting fits. And I hadn't heard about that. But just let's, call to attention, like, this reality that, the Lord does these things to keep us grounded. Right. And he even gives the apostle Paul this thorn, and he says, my grace is sufficient for you. Why does he do these things? I mean, it can be tempting when everybody else sees this missionary as a hero, to not just take on that mantle for yourself and say, yeah, you know what? I kind of am a hero. And so these fits of fainting, I think are helpful. And I like the analogy and the metaphor that he used about a knife needing to be sharpened. And if you just are consistently using it, using it, using it, you're going to. It's going to be dull, you're going to be numb. So maybe, Mandy, to bring you back into this perspective as well. Like, it's important to stay sharp. But I imagine the temptation when somebody is listening, for them to think, okay, so I need to add stay sharp to my list of things to do. So how does somebody actually, in this context, how does actually somebody do that? And what would you suggest to somebody, one of these colleagues, maybe, that you're coaching?

>> Mandy:

I had a housemate in southeast Asia who was really good at sharpening herself, and I learned from her. I'll tell you, I'm still not quite there, but, she would work, work, work, and then she begins to recognize she's dulling herself to the point of, you know, she might even be snippety with somebody, finding that you get on edge with people pretty fast, and all of a sudden, even after you've lived in a country for ten years, all of a sudden, you walk outside and everything is wrong. You know, that culture shock comes in, and you're thinking, why is this a problem? I've lived here this long, and it didn't bug me before kind of thing.

>> Andy:

Why is it still raining?

>> Mandy:

Exactly. Exactly. Why is it still hot? But she would, she would then just say, okay, I need to take a weekend off. And if she even had things on her calendar, she would cancel them. M so that she could be at her best when, when it came back to it. And I I really appreciated that about watching her do that, because she was willing to. She was willing to cut things off so that, that she could be at her best. M and I think that's the same. There was just a discipline of sharpening herself so that she could come back and do her best work. And I think about that, too, just as we even, like I was talking about theology of work before, in who we are, no matter what we're doing on the field, no matter what type of work we're doing on the field, we have to be excellent. We have to be good at what we do. And I I'll be honest, I am not a perfectionist. Naturally. It takes a lot for me to do things like to set myself apart and say, I am actually really good at this. M because I'm one who's like, if it gets done, it gets done kind of mentality. That's my natural perspective.

>> Andy:

Okay.

>> Mandy:

And, So. But I think as a Christian on the field and even in our fundraising, we have to set ourselves apart in how we approach the work that we do, how we approach our fundraising. And in that excellence come, you have to have a sharp blade to do the work well. And so if we're going to be excellent, then we're going to have to build in. And that comes back to that intentionality, the intentional rest and the intentional play, even just the different spiritual disciplines that some of us need to place in our lives to sharpen ourselves for continued work. And, Yeah, I really. I think that's so vital. And I saw it in people, and I saw people who didn't do it, and they continued to do the work, and they were the most horrible people to be around, even though they were brothers and sisters, even if they were taking a quote unquote, coffee break, they just were not pleasant to be around. But that's because they were so dull, you know?

>> Heather:

And they.

>> Mandy:

And they were dull spiritually. They were dull emotionally. They were dull mentally. They were burned out, is what really what was happening. And, And I think that is because they weren't taking the time they needed.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Yeah. And, man, it can just be so hard to realize that's what you need. You know? Sometimes I kind of wish, like, Elijah, an angel would just show up with food and tell us to take a nap, because we can be so slow on the uptake, on, like, what we actually need, you know? And I think that speaks to the importance of community that you've invested in and given the space to, like, speak into your life and kind of say hard things when they need to, you know? And ultimately, there's only so much other people can do to show themselves to be a safe space for you. You have to let them be, you know? So there's. There's just so much that's not controllable about that. But it's really hard to live in this tension, always knowing that by the spirit, we are growing and the Lord is forming us more into the likeness of himself. And with that, we should expect to see change and growth and maturity, and we are never going to be optimized, and we are never going to get to the point where we don't need more pruning and formation until we are perfected after Christ has come.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

So that can be a tricky tension to live in, you know, perpetual sanctification, perpetual sanctification. But to rest in that, you know, that's normal.

>> Andy:

That's the expectation.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Well, I know our time is, drawing close to done, but there's one more idea I want to sneak in here. And that's just that he said that sometimes you think it's about endurance, but really it's just patience. And he talked about Moses and how Moses spent all this time apprenticing, to his father in law and then never had his own flock, but that the Lord was preparing him in a very different way to lead a people out of Egypt. And so I'm just curious how that struck you guys or whether that differentiating endurance and patience, how that hit you.

>> Mandy:

As I think about that, it hadn't hit me until just now, so thank you for bringing that up. Where I'm at in life, in fundraising, in, overseas ministry, is not where I would have thought I would have been 20 years ago. M and so I'm grateful. And what's interesting, too, is even just recently, some things have come, onto my plate about my future. And a lot of it is actually going to utilize the things I learned at the beginning of 20 years ago that I haven't been able to really implement quite as much in what I'm doing right now. And so it's, been really interesting to see how he. When we reflect back on what he's doing. And I'm sure it was the same with Moses. M he was teaching him how to lead a flock because he was leading people through a desert, and he had to learn some basic skills that he wouldn't have learned otherwise. And that the Lord. Nothing that he gives us in his sovereignty, nothing that he gives us, is not usable at some point in our lives. The opportunities that we have, the lessons that we've learned, and so we just long to control it and not allow m m everyone to lead it. And I think a lot of times, we begin to understand that more when we take those times of rest, when we eat those snacks, when we find time for play, and to just sit with the father in fellowship.

>> Andy:

Take your hands off the wheel for a while.

>> Mandy:

Absolutely. And, you know, and good old Carrie Underwood, let Jesus take that wheel. Right?

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So true. And such a good point for us to wrap up our conversation on just the importance of surrender, as you, you know, said earlier, and just really entrusting ourselves to the Lord, believing that he can and does use our circumstances and our experiences for our own good and for the good of others.

>> Andy:

And I guess for my. My final thought was. Would be. And he said it was cliche, but I don't know if I've heard it put quite this way before, that God wants us holy, he doesn't necessarily want us happy. That was. I think I felt that. It felt important to me and that God does discipline people that he loves.

>> Heather:

As an enneagram seven, I wonder if that hits you in a particular way.

>> Andy:

Well, yeah, Yeah, it's fantastic. The truth. And this even, like, resonates with the sermon that we heard last, Sunday. And that's not to say that all of suffering and whatever is related to our sin or whatever.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Ah, but let's just, I thought maybe I'll end with a passage of scripture.

>> Heather:

That sounds great.

>> Andy:

So this is hebrews twelve three eight. It says, for consider him who endured such hostility from sinners against himself, so that you won't grow weary and give up in struggling against sin. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons, my son. Do not take the Lord's discipline lightly or lose heart when you are reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and punishes every son he receives. Endure suffering and discipline. God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, which all receive, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. So that's not to say that everything you suffer is a response from the Lord for something that you've done wrong. Right. But let's also not run away from it, because we have, biblically, the examples of job and jonah. That was from that sermon. Right. So job, we know, wasn't doing anything wrong, but Jonah, obviously was running away from God. M. And then the enemy is also involved, too. Like, Josh points that out as well. So to approach it with an open hand and with an open mind and just say, you know, Lord, what do you. What do you want to teach me through this? Is there something I need to repent of? Or how are you going to be glorified in the midst of what I'm going through right now?

>> Heather:

Well, can I get a little nerdy for a minute?

>> Andy:

Get it? Yeah.

>> Heather:

Okay. I have recently been engaging a variety of resources around brain science. The way our brain is designed, the way it works, things like that. And I was listening to a podcast that was talking about dopamine and how dopamine is released, and I was really struck to hear this content expert speaking to the fact that dopamine release is more associated with motivation than it is reward. And what I mean by that is depending on what your perspective is, if you believe that something is attainable or that something will be okay or whatever, dopamine is actually kind of a current that takes you towards that. You get more dopamine released in that, which I think is actually mind blowingly cool because it's almost as though the God who designed us and then also commanded us to set our mind on his trustworthiness and on good things, like he's like primed our bodies and given us instruction to trust him and to trust that his promises will come true. And it's like in the doing of that, our actual physical body releases this, like the anticipation chemical that like, actually enables us to persevere. Yeah, that's cool.

>> Andy:

That's awesome.

>> Mandy:

That is cool.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Mandy:

And the beauty of what that, what that does, your heart beats a little faster. The joy that comes in, in the work that you do in the, The word I'm looking for is, Yeah, just. It's life giving, right? It's like when you turn your eyes upon Jesus, you know, look full in his wonderful face and things of earth grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace. Like all of a sudden your eyes are on these things and everything else fades away and you're motivated to move forward. And I can imagine that's part of the dopamine.

>> Andy:

We should link that song in the show notes for the younger generation. Who hasn't heard that yet?

>> Heather:

Yeah, maybe so. Maybe so. Well, Mandy, this has been a really rich and wonderful time. Thank you so much for taking the time to unpack this episode with us and listeners. We hope and pray that it is an encouragement to you. And as always, if you have questions or thoughts about it, ping us. You know, we've got the ability to text us in our show notes or send an email to Andy or I and we would be happy to continue the conversation.

>> Andy:

Thanks, Mandy. Doctor Mandy, it was so good to have you here.

>> Mandy:

Thank you so much. It was so great to be here.

>> Andy:

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