It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

32.5 RECAP with Bo and Jess Bissell

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 3 • Episode 32

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Heather and Andy are joined in the RECAP by Jess and Bo Bissell, support raising coaches from Pioneers. Jess and Bo share their unique journey from missionaries in Japan to coaching new and seasoned workers in partnership development. They open up about their experiences, the challenges of rejuvenating fundraising efforts, and the importance of spiritual health in the process. The conversation delves into the fears and misconceptions surrounding support raising, the role of gratitude, and the necessity of community and prayer. 

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>> Heather:

Welcome to it's not about the money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather, and together with my co host, Andy, we look beyond the quick tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it, this is the place for you. Hello and welcome back. Today we are recapping the episode we had with Callie Davis. It was an incredible episode to record, and I was, again, just encouraged in listening to it in prep for this time. And, Andy, we have some guests joining us today. Could you tell us a bit about them?

>> Andy:

Absolutely. And just to, reflect, like, Callie was great. She was a natural, wasn't she?

>> Heather:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

>> Andy:

So good. Yeah. So our guests today are Jess and Bo Bissell, and they are support raising coaches that work for pioneers, and they work primarily with new workers, but they also work with people who are on the field and may be struggling to rejuvenate their fundraising. Jess is also a co host for the Pioneers podcast called Relentless Pursuit. So is that available for everybody or just.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yes, wherever you listen to your podcast, please check it out.

>> Andy:

Awesome. And you guys met as missionaries in Japan. I'd love to hear more about your roles at pioneers and kind of how you got here.

>> Bo Bissell:

Sure. We are on what's called the pre field team at, ah, Pioneers. And that is a team that works with anybody that accepts appointment with pioneers. They work with them from that point till they leave to go to the field. And so we specifically help with partnership development, and we take part in, the weekly trainings for orientation before they leave. But we're actually just meeting with anybody that needs our help, basically, whether they're on the field with pioneers in the office, need to raise support, but it's mostly doing a lot of Zoom calls with people pretty much all over the world. We also talk to people from other, bases. So pioneers has different mobilization bases around the world, and sometimes we get connected with people on the field from different bases. Need some help, too.

>> Andy:

And you guys are coming to us from Orlando. Orlando, the Florida base. Okay.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yes.

>> Heather:

Nice.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah, we actually. Neither of us grew up in anywhere near this area, so I think Orlando was very much the kind of last place we expected to end up. People always ask, like, oh, did you get into PD coaching? Like, because you love PD or because, you know. And, like, honestly, I can't say that either of us were like, oh, yes, PD is our passion. That's what we want to do when we grow up. Right?

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Jess Bissell:

But it was just kind of one of those things where, like, oh, yeah, we did it when we were raising support to go to the field. I guess we like to encourage new workers, you know, preparing to serve overseas. And so, like, yeah, sure. How hard could it be? And it's really just been within the last year or two that we've realized we actually really love walking alongside people. love encouraging them in this journey and just hearing the stories of how the Lord provides and just, like, so many different ways. I think it's funny because our conversations with people, like, the questions we ask, don't change that much from one person to the next. But then the stories that we hear from people, like, every single person's journey is so different. so we've really been loving getting to walk this, and then it's kind of fun we get to do it as a couple, too.

>> Heather:

Yeah, I can really relate to that. I never saw myself landing in a position that was primarily focused on partnership development and support raising and things like that. But honestly, it is just so core to the heart of God to train us and turn our gaze to seek him for our provision and to trust him m for every element. And so, yeah, it's such an enriching space to hang out in and encourage people in.

>> Andy:

You know, I wonder how many. What percentage of high school graduates say, I want to be a fundraiser when I grow up.

>> Heather:

I don't know. But, you know, thinking of Callie. I love that her response when they told her that she would have to raise support, she was like, okay, cool, bring it on.

>> Andy:

Right?

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

That was one of the things from her podcast that stood out. She had just an unbelievable example, set for her growing up.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And, you know, most people don't. Don't get that, and so she was very much prepared to step into that role, and it's very different from most people we meet.

>> Andy:

Yeah, yeah. She's an outlier, for sure.

>> Heather:

Yeah. I'm curious what context you guys had as you started in support based work. Did you have any experience from your family or from your church in that, or was that a new concept for you guys?

>> Jess Bissell:

I think for me, I grew up, in a korean immigrant church, and, if you know anything about korean churches in the US, a lot of them are very involved in missions. So I kind of grown up with sort of the idea of missionaries and then needing support and that kind of thing for a lot of my life. But, on the other hand, raising support, I think, probably looks a little bit different just ethnically, in an asian background than it would say, for example, for Beau, who grew up in Alabama. So to answer your question, I don't know that I had a whole lot of context, but I felt like it didn't feel like crazy that I needed.

>> Heather:

To do it right.

>> Andy:

Gotcha.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yeah. For me, I, always understood if you were going to go long term, you needed a race support. I had raised support for a short term mission trip, but thinking about long term and have it be a continual thing that comes every month, that was brand new territory for me. When I stepped into it.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah. I'm curious if it was very different for you guys to raise support for a domestic role versus the overseas role that you had had a.

>> Jess Bissell:

I mean, I think there were so many things that changed when we took on the domestic world that it's kind of hard. It's very much apples to oranges because it was like single versus being married. It was Covid versus pre Covid, because we actually ended up doing a lot. We kind of changed positions to 2020, 2021. and so that. It's a little bit hard to say. It's a little bit hard to compare them. but I think mostly we were just received with so much grace by people. There are definitely some who are like, oh, we really want to focus our financial resources on people who are on the front lines, who are there amongst the unreached. Right. That kind of thing. Which is fine, I think, for the most.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

Which is totally fine. Right. And of course, anybody who wants to support missionaries, we're like, please do all that. Right. But at the same time, it was really nice when people recognized, like, oh, like, support raising, coaching, like, without you, people don't get to the front lines, people don't stay serving amongst people who need to hear the gospel and all that. so, yeah, yeah, I would say.

>> Bo Bissell:

Most people that we interact with are still with us.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

But, you know, when it comes to some of the sending churches the way they want to, you know, spend their money, it's more, overseas focused than here. But honestly, it's been just a new way of sharing, God's vision for the world because it was a whole other side of missions. Like, even though we went through the process to go to the field, we didn't see how it all worked behind.

>> Jess Bissell:

The scene and just focus on, like, Japan. Get to Japan.

>> Heather:

Right, right.

>> Bo Bissell:

And it's that vision that, what's going on behind the scenes is so, so much bigger than I ever thought it was going to be m. And it's, it's really neat to be able to share that part of it because most people don't get to hear that part and how important it is.

>> Heather:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it is really fun to get to know you guys a little bit more, actually. Fun fact for the listeners. So we met the bissells, or Andy met the bissells about a little over a year ago at the support raising leaders conference and didn't realize the connection till we got on the call today.

>> Andy:

Well, I recognize their faces, but I mean, it's one of those things where I can recognize the face, but if I meet you, I'll probably promptly forget your name.

>> Heather:

M. Right, right.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

And then I actually had the opportunity to meet the bissells also last year when I had joined a pioneer alumni call, and then I was directed to them.

>> Andy:

That's crazy. That's crazy.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Yeah. So thank you guys for joining us.

>> Andy:

I have a question to start that's kind of off script a little bit and kind of also a little bit of background from you guys, but I'm just wondering how much or how often do you guys, when you're coaching people that are struggling, maybe how often do you get into topics or issues in partnership development that seem, like, connected to spiritual things and spiritual health?

>> Jess Bissell:

M a lot, for sure.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Okay.

>> Jess Bissell:

I think one of the most common things is people just feel discouraged or alone or like they're doing it on their own or they don't know what God is doing, and they just have a lot of, like, fears.

>> Bo Bissell:

And I would say that's a big one. You see a lot of fear when it comes to support racing.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah. And I think ultimately a lot of that is very much a spiritual battle. so I think it regularly comes up in conversation. we ask about it a lot, too, because some people are almost even, I think, afraid to admit that they're afraid going to work, that they're afraid. Yeah, exactly. And so we kind of have to be point blank, like, how are you feeling? Like, do you have any fears? And then people are like, well, if I'm going to be honest, then, yeah, I really don't know how this is going to work out. Yeah. and we can just tell them, like, that's totally normal. Everyone feels that way.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

It's not a crazy thing that you're afraid.

>> Andy:

And I think people, what are the top three fears? I'm wondering, what are the things that you hear the most often?

>> Bo Bissell:

that I'm lazy. You know, that I'm begging for money.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah. That I'm begging for money.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Jess Bissell:

That I'm not properly working for money. that I'll ruin my relationships.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yes. That's a big one.

>> Jess Bissell:

and I guess just rejection in general.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

People are very scared of rejection.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

It's kind of interesting too, though, because I think when people state those fears and when you think about it, it's sort of like that's a legit fear, but at the same time like, of course none of those things are going to happen, you know? Of course none of those things are true. Right. People aren't going to all suddenly start hating you and thinking that you're a lazy beggar, right?

>> Andy:

No.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah. It can help to name them because naming it helps to see. Oh, okay, that's probably not going to happen. Yeah, yeah.

>> Andy:

And labeling it so you feel actually that you will have no friends if you start to fundraise.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah. Right, right.

>> Andy:

Accurate.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yeah, yeah. And you got to combat against a lot of, you know, american culture. You take, you know, especially for, I guess, a man and his family. You're supposed to provide for your family, you're supposed to take care of them. And so you go about doing that in just a completely different way and it just goes against everything some people feel inside.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That can be tricky to navigate how you've been raised.

>> Jess Bissell:

Right.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

That whole, like, pick yourself up by your bootstraps. I mean, people always talk about, especially when you're thinking about international fundraising, people always talk about, well, in our country, it's not culturally appropriate compared to America. And I'm like, and America's not really culturally appropriate either, actually, in a lot of contexts. Right. Like in the church, if you grew up in a very missional church, then maybe you've been hearing about it, but it's not really exactly the american way. Right, sure.

>> Andy:

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

>> Heather:

Yeah. You know, just thinking about what you were saying regarding fear. I'm so grateful. there are two stories that immediately come to mind and one is just Elijah. And when he's, you know, basically after having this like amazing moment schooling the prophets of Baalje, he's afraid of this woman and God meets him in that fear. And then the other story that comes to mind is just the disciples when Jesus is asleep in the storm and their fear, their fear, like, are we going to be okay? And then his response and calming the storm and inviting them into faith. Right. So, yeah, I think a lot of times, the fear feels big and feels legitimate, but, But the Lord does bring comfort and help.

>> Jess Bissell:

So I love that story in Elijah, too, because when he's in the desert and the raven or the ravens bring him food, and then the angel comes to him and tells him to, like, eat and rest, and he says it's this really beautiful line. He's like, the journey is too much for you, and so you need to, like, eat and rest on. Right. And I feel like that's so true. Like, the journey really is too much for all of us, except that the Lord is so gracious and provides.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Jess Bissell:

And I think that really, that whole idea is very much experienced in support racing.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, guys, what can we get into from this episode? What stood out?

>> Jess Bissell:

So for me, if I'm going to be totally honest, actually, and actually both just listen to it. So we haven't talked to each other, so I don't know if you'll find that surprising. But when you're asking Callie about, you know, spiritual healthiness and how to really stay spiritual healthy, and when she started talking about gratitude, I will, to be totally honest, I will admit I, like, rolled my eyes just a little bit at the first when she said that. Not because. And with all due respect to Callie, right, because she's awesome, but I think just. It just sounded like such, like an instagrammable m kind of phrase and not in a good way. yeah, sort of, like, cliche and almost like a pat answer, and it's, like, too easy. Right. And I feel like it's so easy to kind of use gratitude to brush things under the rug. And, you know, I feel like sometimes gratitude is almost done, like, at the expense of really being honest about the hardship and the reality of how things. How it's a struggle sometimes. Right. so, of course, that's not what Kelly was talking about. And I really appreciated, as she shared more about what that meant and how it's really just about a turning towards God. Right. And she kind of. That was kind of a theme, I think, that came up several times throughout that conversation about how, you know, in good times and in bad, gratitude really turns you back towards the Lord. And so I really appreciated how she shared about that and how she kind of fleshed out what it actually means to practice gratitude, not just be like, oh, everything is like unicorns and rainbows and be happy, but really, like, you know, in all things, let's really count our blessings and worship God.

>> Heather:

Yeah. I think that is such an important thing to say, Jess, because I really think, I mean, there's a category biblically for people that are, like, doing all the right things and their heart is just like hollow and whitewashed. Right. Like, and I think gratitude is one of those things that you can do in pretense to bypass and not feel and not wrestle and just kind of like, do what you should do. Or gratitude can be in earnest and can be on the other side of really wrestling or even just being real. Like God. I desire to have a heart turned in gratitude, and I am struggling with that. And seeing how Jesus meets you in that moment versus like, okay, okay, I'm frustrated. So what can I be grateful for? Well, I'll be grateful for this. And not to say that there's not any time we need to take our thoughts captive, but I do think that there's an invitation to really push into gratitude in a way that's not to the neglect, of whatever might be hard or difficult.

>> Andy:

You know, it's not like we just need to have a stiff upper lip and be plastered the smile on and keep going. it feels like we need to find that balance between, like, wallowing in our suffering but also being honest with it.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

And I think, like, because wallowing in your suffering, right. Sometimes you just stop at wallowing if you don't have gratitude. Right. But I think gratitude is one of those things that helps you take the wallowing in your suffering. Right. Be really real with it, but then still end up with your face towards God. At his feet, depending on him.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yeah. I think sometimes when people go through this process, they have a tendency just to focus on what didn't work, what wasn't successful, what's gone wrong. You know, everybody makes plans and they never go like they think. And there are many, many different blessings. You get along the way that the Lord has just provided that for whatever reason, don't focus on and forget that it happened. You have to take the time, I think, you know, like Callie said, and just recognize the good things the Lord has done along the way and realize that it hasn't been just this horrible road of hardship. You know, there have been good things that have happened along the way as well.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And, yeah, it's really where your focus is.

>> Jess Bissell:

Not to mention a lot of the hardships that come through support racing. I feel like are things that really hone and prepare our character and our spirit for a really, to be honest, even harder life in ministry. Right. So.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

I would say support raising is the best, the best process to prepare you to be on the field. It just reflects the field in so many different ways.

>> Andy:

Yeah. Amen.

>> Bo Bissell:

Just that whole process.

>> Andy:

And I like how she kind of drew, the comparison that on the opposite side of gratitude is a scarcity mindset. you're paying attention to a lack and asking questions like where is God and all this and what is God doing? And I think whenever you are asking questions like what am I missing? Or what don't I have? Or those friends back home that haven't sacrificed what I've sacrificed, like why has God being so kind to them? I think those are dangerous questions.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah, right, right.

>> Andy:

So I think if you're a new missionary and you think I'm not going to struggle with that, well, I feel like we have bad news. Even the apostles, like, wrestled with comparison. Like who's the greatest? I'm like, I'm going to sit as right and I'm going to sit at his left and how dare you? And so I feel like a lack of gratitude is almost like derailing and like a disorienting force. There was this quote that I just stumbled across from a big pastor. His name is Craig Groeschel and a friend of mine introduced him to me and he posted this on X, formerly known as Twitter. He said, comparison will either make you feel inferior or superior, and neither of those honors God.

>> Heather:

M, right.

>> Andy:

So I feel like gratitude is the active retaliation against comparison and scarcity.

>> Jess Bissell:

That's a really good way to put it. I like that. Yeah. I think it also kind of speaks into just like that character of humility and that Cs Lewis quote, humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. In other words, you're keeping your focus on the Lord. That's great. You're not doing that comparison. But again, kind of back to what Kelly was saying, it's really just bringing your eyes towards God. So, yeah, good support raising. Definitely. It makes you do that.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What did you guys think of the three kind of buckets that she had when she was thinking about spiritual health? It was how you were pursuing God, how you see God responding back to you and then the community and church.

>> Bo Bissell:

Around you, I definitely think. And this can kind of fit in that first and third category. But prayer M is probably one of the, if not the most important things to constantly be in and have people be in with you and for you. I think it just goes, it does so much for you. I mean, that's one of the main things we encourage people to do when they come through orientation with us is do you have a prayer advocacy group? Are there people that are going to come alongside you and pray with you if something comes up? Do you have somebody take it to ask them to, pray for you? And just being surrounded in prayer as much as possible.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And that, and really, you know, if you think of prayer as conversation with God, I think gratitude dovetails with that. I mean, goodness, if we are, if we are walking in gratitude and in the call to rejoice always, I think that that will result in, in a very, rich prayer life because it will be directed in conversation of thanks towards him, you know?

>> Bo Bissell:

Definitely, definitely.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah. And I think actually had not really heard anyone describe spiritual health kind of the way that Kelly did in these like three buckets. M m and I just thought that was really nice, just how it makes it really kind of concrete and sort of approachable. Like, you know, how are my buckets? Like, are some fuller or full of more quality versus quantity? She kind of talked about, and I feel like all three of these, you can really kind of see how it affects your support raising journey. Right. Like we think of like the God ask and how, like, you know, are you really looking to people to provide for you or are you looking to God? Right. Are you really being aware of how the Lord has provided for you, not just in terms of financial, you know, like monthly donors, but just in all the other myriad of ways that, you know, we need provision for him while we're pursuing ministry. and then of course, it's obvious, like, the way that the community comes around, you can't do support raising without community. You can't do it without the body of Christ. So it's kind of, I feel like that would be so cool in a conversation with someone who's going through this, like, as a coach, to kind of look at those three categories and be like, let's just see what the Lord is doing in these three categories. What is going on in your life? Right. And I feel like that would be a really encouraging framework from which to see, ah, these are all the things that are going on in my life and these are all the ways that support raising. Even though maybe my monthly donors is kind of plateauing, these are all the different things that are still happening in my life and the Lord is still growing and blessing me with. So, yeah, I really appreciated how she kind of described, understanding spiritual health.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And those are also things, those three categories for any missionary heading to the field. You know, you want to have good rhythms, you want. To be in good practice with all of those things, because stepping into the field, you know, if those things aren't where they should be, it's going to affect you pretty quick.

>> Andy:

Yeah, yeah. The field doesn't automatically sharpen those things. I mean, it does over time, out of necessity. But you're not going to magically flip a switch when you cross an ocean, right?

>> Bo Bissell:

Yeah, right.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah. No, that reminds me of what she was saying about like, dependence and how when you're on, ah, the field and you're kind of in this sort of like extreme state of dependence just because you're kind of constantly bombarded with all the areas in which you're inadequate on the field. Right. and I totally agree with what you said about how that's a really tough place to be, but it's also just really beautiful and that it kind of brings you into this sort of different level of walking with the Lord that we honestly just, you know, would not be motivated to get to in our normal everyday lives.

>> Bo Bissell:

You can get there unless you do something like that. Maybe it's just completely different from anything you experience. And just day to day life here. I mean, trauma and going through hardship is definitely one thing, but just something about feeling like you're starting all over in a new place. You got to be five years old all over again. Learn to take care of yourself, you know, learn to read, learn to write.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Bo Bissell:

It's just tumbling a whole other level. Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

So good.

>> Bo Bissell:

But yeah, I like your three points. And talking about that dependency on the Lord, I think, you know, there's such a joy you can get out of support raising, but I think very few people actually get to that point.

>> Andy:

Why do you think that is?

>> Bo Bissell:

I think it's where their focus is, you know, because I love the name of the podcast, you know, it's not about the money, you know, and it's not, and I mean, we tell people this all the time, you're not going to make anybody give to you. And everybody has this sense of control and there's such a sense of freedom you can get there when you're just depending on the Lord and you were just living in the area he's called you to be in, he's just called you to share what he's doing in this country, what he's put on your heart, and just to make an ask that's the only part, I think, that really feels uncomfortable to most m, people.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Bo Bissell:

But honestly, it's just an ask and you're sharing that passion, that's the focus is on the passion and what the Lord's called you to do.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And if you can get to that place, it is so freeing. And you can get a lot of joy because you're so excited to talk to anybody that'll listen. And that's all you want to do. You know, it's not about who, you know, has money because you never know who's going to work and, you know, the Lord's going to work in their heart to give. Just share with anybody that'll listen to you.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And so I I think it's very free. And, you know, getting back to comparing yourself and being in control and worry, you know, I think that's part of that spiritual attack and that part of that just bombardment of fear and uncertainty. And if you can just see past that just a little bit, there's a lot of joy to be had there.

>> Andy:

And in the same vein, we're skipping. I think we're kind of skipping ahead a little bit. But I thought what she said about, how she handles the no was super encouraging. I've started incorporating that in my coaching, like, instantly.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Like, guys, don't be so paranoid. Or so petrified. Right. With the no. And just to kind of remind the reader, I thought what she said, in summary is we're okay with the no because he's calling. He is calling you to something, and it's okay if it's not me. And even just to communicate that with, with your potential partner and saying, hey, I appreciate that you are saying a wholehearted yes to God somewhere else and that you're investing your time and your resource elsewhere. And I'm just happy that we got to share this moment together. And, you know what? If God lays it on your heart again, I'd love to come back and talk to you more about this, but God, you are where God wants you, and we don't want you anywhere else. But let's just appreciate this moment. Like, that's great.

>> Heather:

Yeah, well, yeah, and it definitely, if you're able to hold the no with that kind of blessing for whatever the Lord might be doing, it definitely brings joy, you know, to what Bo was saying. Yeah. I'm reminded of kind of another place in the conversation where she's just talking about losing vision and needing to kind of come back to your why? And I just, I think it is a very human thing that we struggle to kind of stay in a constant state of trust or, you know, settled dependence or joy or whatever, but. But certainly I think that through the work of the spirit in our life, we can experience that more and more, you know, and that's a real encouragement, because somebody doesn't have to be stuck in fear in their fundraising. They might feel fear time to time, but more and more they're able to, by the spirit, hold it with joy, you know?

>> Andy:

Yeah. That's part of that refining process, the.

>> Heather:

Way you do it. Yeah. Being formed. Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

And practically speaking, right. If you think about you want to do this ministry for the rest of your life, if, like, a good chunk of your ministry has to. To be miserable for the rest of your career, I mean, that's just unfortunate. right. So I feel like even just for the practical aspect of, like, make this not to be this huge burden and this thing that you dread, but something that does actually bring not just you, but also your partner's blessing, I think, can be so transformative for ministry, especially when you come back on home assignments, you know, for missionaries, and it's sort of like, it's supposed to be a restful time, but the whole time you're just thinking about this dreadful thing you ought to do, right. Then it's definitely not going to make your home assignment restful.

>> Andy:

Yeah, that's unfortunate. I wonder how many people, or how often we assume that people are on the mission field for 2030 years. They must love fundraising, they must be excellent at it, but a lot of times they're kind of just doing it as they still see it, as a necessary evil. And that's, like you said, that's unfortunate.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

M some of the conversations that I think that are hardest for us is with people who've been faithfully serving for decades on the field, and they just have so much experience, and they've seen just amazing things that the Lord has been doing overseas, but they hate fundraising. And now, on top of the fact that they hate support raising, they haven't been living in the US for 30 years. And, you know, a lot of the people that supported them when they first went overseas, you know, they're a little bit older, they're retiring, or they're taking care of their parents who are sickly, or whatnot.

>> Bo Bissell:

Passed away.

>> Jess Bissell:

Right. Passed away. And they just haven't made any new friends. They've lost a lot of their old ones, and they just feel so stuck and they would much rather just eat into their savings or eat into their retirement instead of.

>> Andy:

That's unfortunate.

>> Jess Bissell:

Using some of the tools and sharing the passion and taking the opportunity to really share about what are some awesome ministries overseas, because they're just so petrified at the thought of talking about money with people. And so I think that's the most like, ah, it like breaks my heart a little bit when I talk.

>> Andy:

It's like an invitation to mobilize a whole nother generation.

>> Jess Bissell:

Right?

>> Andy:

Yes, that's what it is.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yes. Yeah, I totally have this, like, picture in my head and I haven't really seen anybody do it well, us included. But I just love the thought of raising support in like an entire family, like a multi generational family. Right, right. Where you connect with parents and then they teach their kids, like, hey, this is our missionary that we support. This is the missionary that we pray for at dinner time and that, when they're in town, we go to their prayer meeting. Right. And so then when the kids grow up, you know, they start giving to the missionary, and then when the parents are retired or can't support that missionary anymore, that missionary doesn't have to worry about it because they've been connected with this whole family all along, and now it's just like generations of partnership with this worker, with their ministry. Maybe with, if they've been serving the same, like, unreached people group, for example, the entire time, then that creates that sort of heart in that family for them and for the things that are on the Lord's heart. And so I think if we could equip our workers to be able to do that better, I think that could be so cool.

>> Andy:

Yeah. Long term vision.

>> Heather:

Oh, I love it. I love that vision. Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

Whenever I start leadership of missions out of church, that's what I'm going to start to do.

>> Andy:

Yeah. Because I feel like you do have to start it at the church, at the congregation level.

>> Heather:

Hm.

>> Andy:

This is a normal thing, families, brothers and sisters, that we want you to bring your kids into this, and that's kind of a no brainer. Like, yeah, I want my kids to start thinking about the life beyond Orlando or whatever, Fort Collins. they need to see the bigger world. So. Yeah, that's a great idea.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Something else that really struck me from our conversation with Callie was just emphasizing that, you know, in support based work, there are many things that you steward and that you are responsible for, but the results are not one of them. And I think that that is just the work of ministry is that we move in obedience and act and do work, and it's hard work in many cases, but we can't control the results. And so it's really building that trust, independence, trusting that God who does control the results is trustworthy. So I think that's good. And I think that's another thing that can bring joyous for people is to just realize, like, man, my part is to do my part and the part of how the funding comes in and who gives and how much, that's just not my part, you know?

>> Bo Bissell:

Yeah, yeah, it's good. You have no control over it.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

No control over that timeline you have. Yeah. You know, I think the best thing I ever learned from a, refill mission prep community, I went through the mission. Pastor made me write out my whole two year plan before I was going to go the field. And I spent so much time on that thing, and I made it perfect. I knew what I was going to do within certain months, and I was going to be ready to go in two years.

>> Andy:

Wow.

>> Bo Bissell:

Brought it back the next week, and, it was in the winter, and after the lesson was over for that night, he took us all out back, had a bonfire going. He took everybody's plans.

>> Andy:

And that's what I was thinking. He tore it up in front of you or something. Yeah, he burned them all.

>> Bo Bissell:

I was like, oh, my gosh. And he was right, you know, none of that happened like I thought it would. Some of it I did, some of it I didn't. You know, I love that.

>> Andy:

That's great.

>> Bo Bissell:

We're, we're on his timeline.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And, you may get to do everything you plan to do, or you may only get to do part of it, but if he's going to get you there, he's going to get you there, and, you just got to be okay with how it happens and when it happens.

>> Heather:

You know what? That's interesting, because I was in another meeting earlier today, and at one point it came up that there's an author that whenever he receives a box of the book that he's just published, he takes the first one out of the box and burns it as kind of a way of surrendering. Like, lord, you're the only one that's going to, like, you're in control of what happens with this.

>> Andy:

Wow.

>> Heather:

So, yeah, maybe you need to find something to burn. I don't know.

>> Jess Bissell:

The takeaway lesson is, I mean, the ancient Israelites did it, right? I mean, maybe we need to bring that back into practice, right?

>> Andy:

Well, it's so final. Right. It's just so final. Like, there's no. You can't. You can't piece that.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

No picking that back up.

>> Andy:

Right?

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah. Right. Literally return it to ashes. Right. I mean.

>> Heather:

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So I know earlier I referenced the story about Jesus with his disciples in the storm, and I'm struck because on, an earlier episode, it might have even been season two, when we talked with Jeff and Kat Panoyer, and they mentioned that they had just been reflecting recently on, you know, in that story, how different would it have been if the disciples hadn't feared their life? Like, if they had believed that God would. Would come through? Like, how different would that have been? And also just seeing that when they did wake him up, he rebuked the storm. He didn't rebuke them. You know, his response was very gracious to them. And so I guess kind of how this ties into the conversation with Callie is at one point, she just talks about how you're always making moves towards how you're going to respond later in a situation. Right. And this is what the disciplines do. They cultivate. They form us into how we will like the place we will then respond from when trial comes or suffering or whatever. Right. We understand that as a broad christian concept of. And so I think it was helpful. She was talking about essentially, investing in your spiritual health is investing in the formation that will then help you and be your stability in the storm. And that just reminded me of the invitation to be well prepared for when the storms come. And then also the reminder that if we're not optimized and if we are afraid, the Lord is really gracious when we come to him in that space, you know? So I appreciate that.

>> Andy:

How do you prepare yourself for a storm?

>> Heather:

Well, I think. Okay, so kind of going back to what Beau said, I think prayer. I really think that if. If we are able to, in earnest rather than in pretense, move into a life of prayer or gratitude or whatever, those things actually do form us into responding differently when things happen.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Andy:

I also feel like there's only so much you can do until you've been through one.

>> Heather:

Totally. M totally. Yeah.

>> Andy:

And we're so afraid of them, but really, like, the next one's not going to be as bad. Like, can you picture the disciples in the boat if they had no fear? Like, what kind of a cool, like, roller coaster that would have been?

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Just riding up and down the waves, hooting and hollering. I mean, life's a roller coaster. But if you're not afraid, you can enjoy it.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yeah. You know, I, I would hope that would have been the case, but just knowing you and human nature, they probably would have been just scared again the next time.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

You know.

>> Andy:

Right.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

We have short memories.

>> Heather:

Yeah. And the Lord is actually super gracious and kind to us in that and invites us to not be afraid. you know?

>> Andy:

Yeah, both and.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah. I also think that like, you can't, it's not like hurricane season where you like specifically putting aside dry food or water or whatever because you know that a storm might come. Right. I feel like in the christian walk then, because then it would mean like your spiritual disciplines are motivated by fear.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Jess Bissell:

And so it's almost like being prepared for the storms is almost kind of like a byproduct, I feel like, of us continually pursuing our walk with Jesus, of really dwelling with him. Right. So then it's not necessarily like, oh, I never know when like, you know, God's going to let disaster strike, so, you know, I better be praying an extra hour every day. Right. Like, I don't, I don't really think that that's how he's necessarily calling us to prepare for the storm. He just calls us to continually walk closer, more and more in step with him. And then just naturally as we do that, we are that much more prepared for whatever does come our way.

>> Andy:

And the perspective is enforced that the lord of the storm is in the boat with us.

>> Jess Bissell:

Right. Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

You know, and it's still going to be hard.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

No matter what you do.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yeah. But that the way it affects you is definitely can be drastically different.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah. There can be a big difference in how long it takes you to find your footing. Right. And that, that can be a real consequence.

>> Andy:

Your ceilings.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

I was going through like a health thing recently and I just kept asking the Lord, I was just kept praying like, God, please heal me, please help me not to deal with this. Help me to like sleep normally. And I think partway through my prayer kind of started changing. Not that he would, I mean, I still wanted him to heal me, of course, but it was sort of like, God, please give me like the grace and strength to endure for m as long as you have this for me. Right. And that it wouldn't make me cross with my husband or cranky at work. But that I could really just continue to endure. Well, right. and I think that was, I don't know, I feel like that was kind of a little bit of a shift internally. It wasn't externally, unfortunately, but at least internally it was a little bit of a shift in me.

>> Heather:

That reminds me of an upcoming conversation that we have with Catherine and Brandon Samuel where they just identified that the Lord really impressed upon them that in the Lord's prayer just thinking about give us this day our daily bread and how just the specificity and really the focus on he is the giver and daily, you know, not just praying for the provision period, but today's provision and it sounds like the place he took you to in your prayers was like endurance for the day or kind of like, you know, healing would be awesome. Full provision would be awesome. But lord, what do you have today? What do you have right now? You know, in this moment?

>> Andy:

Help me to experience and embrace the truth that his grace is sufficient. Help me to move that from my head to my heart.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

Yes. And I feel like some days like it makes sense you can, you can get there and then some days you just feel like, I don't, not feeling it.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And yeah, I mean, what you were saying reminded me of being on the field. Like I struggled with language on the field. It was just, it was the one thing I prayed for or just let me get language. It was the one thing I didn't get, you know, and, I was just miserable. And, I just, everything about writing, reading, speaking, it just didn't, just one my thing. So every day it was like, lord, how do I find peace? How do I find some contentment and happiness in the midst of total failure?

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

And it was like constant every single. And some days, I mean, I would be failing tests, I would be doing everything wrong and I would be okay. I'd be happy. I was like, the Lord loves me. And then some days it would be like, this is the, the sky is falling on me, you know, it's like I lost that. From what? And it's just a continual process and you got to keep bringing it back to him. And it was one of those things. Yes, it got a little bit better, but it's like, how do you live in the midst of, of hardship?

>> Heather:

Yeah, well, I think it helps to kind of normalize. Like, yeah, you know, we're not, we're not machines. We're not like optimized in that we're not going to kind of go through a pattern of reestablishing our dependence on God. I mean, you know, there's no, there's no dependence without need and there's not often need unless there's disruption. Right. M so I think that to the extent that we can accept that like that, but that's the reality that also kind of brings joy, you know, freedom.

>> Andy:

Yeah. It's not a realization that you just check the box once and you're done. It's a perpetual, it's a sanctifying process.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Bo Bissell:

Just constantly in your face, reminding you how much you need.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

And I mean, support raising, because you're just constantly thinking, like, I need to get on the field, I need to get on the field.

>> Heather:

Right.

>> Jess Bissell:

I think, one of the things that I always tell people if they're on full on, like this is their main thing, support raising. They've got four months to get to the field. We always tell people, take one day a week. When you don't think about support raising, it's like they just take a complete sabbath specifically from support raising. Don't answer text messages, don't make phone calls, don't set up appointments, because it can be so emotionally draining to constantly be thinking about, who do I need to reach out to next? Like, when am I going to finish support racing? Like, when am I going to, you know. So I always tell people, like, give yourself at least an evening, ideally a day, a week where you don't have to do any people.

>> Andy:

And that's a discipline too, especially for people who are super responsible and driven. But you, you gotta do that.

>> Heather:

Yes. And she even says that, you know, that was the final point I wanted to speak to from the podcast that she encourages people to restore, to have a sabbath. And I think, yeah, what you said, jess, it's, it's just so critical. And I would even encourage people, you know, purpose that and maybe have a notebook. And if something comes to mind related to sport raising, just write it down and keep rolling with your rest, right. So that you don't lose it. You know, you, you've put a pin in it, you can come back to it later. But I think it was another recent conversation we had, I think, with Bernie about protecting the asset or just understanding that taking the time you need to be a healthy, holistically healthy, spiritually healthy, and physically healthy, and, you know, mentally well, which so much of that honestly goes back to rest. It's important, you know, it's not selfish, it's not lazy, it's, I mean, frankly commanded, but also just evident in the design of our human body and its need for replenishment.

>> Andy:

You know, God doesn't love you more if you're literally working yourself to death, right? For him.

>> Bo Bissell:

Exactly.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

But we definitely experience God's love better when we are not working ourselves to death.

>> Heather:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I mean, not only are you maybe more, I don't know, lively and able to, to recognize. Yeah. To function, but you're also probably not sitting in a position of striving for his love, right? You know, you're resting in it, so.

>> Andy:

Yeah.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Andy:

Well, awesome.

>> Heather:

This has been a really, really wonderful and fun conversation.

>> Bo Bissell:

Oh, good.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah, we've had fun too. Thank you so much for inviting us.

>> Andy:

Yeah. And so if listeners want to be directed to the podcast again, it's relentless pursuit.

>> Jess Bissell:

We do interviews with missionaries from all over the world. They just share their stories, the good, the bad, the ugly. So please check it out.

>> Heather:

Yeah, and I guess, you know, given that you guys, work in coaching and encouraging and supporting others, are there any resources, other resources you would want to point our listeners to?

>> Jess Bissell:

there's this podcast called, it's not about the money.

>> Andy:

Oh, that's a good one.

>> Jess Bissell:

Yeah, we heard that. That was really, really great. So you should definitely check that out.

>> Heather:

Shout out.

>> Jess Bissell:

I think people need to also just talk to their churches and their pastors more, right. If you Google partnership development, support, raising, I mean, there's like a million different things online. Right. But I feel like some people, they probably have resources, you know, at their own doorstep, that they don't fully utilize.

>> Andy:

And it's really, I think it's really helpful when you go to those authority figures in the church and ask them for advice like that gives them a stake in your success.

>> Heather:

Yeah.

>> Jess Bissell:

Right. Yeah, absolutely.

>> Heather:

Well, yeah, because one of the, I mean, the primary resource is people, community, like actual, actual people advocating and helping. So. Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for your time and listeners. We will catch you next week.

>> Andy:

It's not about the money is presented by provisio fundraising solutions equip support based workers with flexible training, practical resources and one on one coaching. Find out more@provisiofundraising.com.