43. Coach Aaron Gonyou on Preparing for Fundraising Success

"God could drop the money in your lap, but instead, He takes you through a process that humbles you, grows your faith, and challenges you to see ministry as a team sport—not an individual one."

"Support raising is counter-cultural, but it’s not counter-biblical. It transcends culture, and though it’s awkward and hard, it’s a biblical practice that God uses to prepare us for ministry."

Heather and Andy are joined by kingdom entrepreneur Aaron Gonyou of Unmuzzled Ox to discuss the critical aspects of preparing ministry workers for their assignments. They delve into the essential aspects of preparing ministry workers for their assignments. Drawing from decades of diverse experiences, Aaron highlights common pitfalls organizations encounter when equipping staff for partnership development. He emphasizes the significance of comprehensive preparation, identifies major mistakes that can hinder fundraising efforts, and discusses the multifaceted benefits of holistic support from local churches. Throughout the conversation, Aaron shares practical advice and personal stories from his extensive background in both business and ministry.

In this episode:

• 00:00 - Why Support Raising Matters
  Aaron explains how God uses the process of support raising to prepare ministry workers for their calling.
• 03:06 - Aaron’s Journey to Unmuzzled Ox
  Aaron shares his background, from Bible college to founding Unmuzzled Ox, and how his experiences shaped his mission.
• 05:25 - The Seven Keys to Successful Preparation
  A breakdown of common pitfalls and essential steps organizations need to prepare ministry workers effectively.
• 08:05 - The Role of Local Church Blessing
  Why the endorsement of a local church is critical for ministry success.
• 13:14 - Misconceptions About Support Raising
  Exploring the balance between making support raising sound too easy or too hard—and finding the “sweet spot.”
• 18:55 - Counter-Cultural but Biblical
  The challenges of support raising in different cultural contexts and its biblical foundation.
• 22:59 - The Formation Process in Support Raising
  How the journey of fundraising shapes ministry workers to become more like Jesus.
• 25:33 - The Importance of Clear Goals and Accountability
  Why having defined roles, goals, and strong HR processes is essential for success.
• 29:29 - Innovative Approaches to Support Raising
  Discussion on innovative HR practices, like paying minimum wage during support raising.
• 45:26 - The Need for Coaching and Community
  Highlighting the importance of having a coach and a core support team to navigate the fundraising journey.
• 51:41 - Encouragement for Ministry Workers
  Aaron provides a heartfelt message to ministry workers about the significance of their work and their role in advancing the Gospel.
• 53:12 - Closing Thoughts
  Final reflections on embracing change and trusting God’s work through imperfect systems.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Could drop the money in your lap. So why does he take you through a process that humbles you, that makes you vulnerable, that grows your faith, that challenges to get out of your own skin helps you to realize that ministry is a team sport, not an individual sport, is to make you more like Jesus. I Heather,

Heather Winchell: 0:25

welcome to it's not about the money. A podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather, and together with my co host Andy, we look beyond the Quick Tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it. This is the place for you.

Andy Brennan: 0:47

Welcome back to the show everyone in preparing ministry workers for their assignment. Organizations typically offer multiple streams of support and pre departure equipping to their staff. This often does include training around partnership development, as well as a variety of other areas like cultural awareness and contextualization of the gospel. No doubt the intent of every organization is to prepare their people well, but it doesn't always happen. Perhaps it's a you don't know what you don't know, scenario with a young organization, or maybe it's a well, we've always done it this way, or it was good enough before. Why change it? Situation? Of course, our heart is not to belittle or criticize, but we would like to help by bringing this topic into dialog by shedding some light. So we have invited Aaron gonyu of unmuzzled ox to join us today to share his experiences and observations about what it looks like when preparation seems incomplete or inadequate. Heather, would you do the honors?

Heather Winchell: 2:00

I'd love to So Aaron, along with his wife Rachel and children, happily reside in London, Ontario, Canada. And after attending Briarcrest Bible college, he went on to have a miraculous support raising experience during his time in YWAM. And then he raised personal support through his ministry at Youth for Christ. And then he worked in various marketing relation capacities at compassion Canada, before becoming their director of marketing and communications. So some really great experience. Yeah, and through this unique blend of past experiences, Aaron founded unmuzzled aux, incorporated in 2014 and now as a kingdom entrepreneur coaches missionaries in their support, raising efforts so that the gospel of Jesus Christ can go forward by seeing ministry workers fully funded and trained to thrive for their whole career. I love that. I love that. Aaron and we are so excited to have you on the podcast today. So we would love to kick it off by asking you to share a bit about your own story in support based work and how unmuzzled ox came to be. Yes,

Unknown: 3:06

well, thanks for having me. Today. I went to Bible college after high school, but prior to that, that wasn't the plan I was I was gonna head down a different direction. God did some things in my life to change my direction that steered me towards Bible College. But I always joke that when you ask a kid, what do you want to be when you grow up, no kid says, I want to coach missionaries how to write support. That's okay. So that wasn't something, yeah, that wasn't something that was that was part of the plan. So I trained to be in ministry. I did a short term missions experience with an organization called YWAM. I had a miraculous support raising experience with them that built my faith to come back here to my home, City of London, Ontario, where I worked at Youth for Christ for close to five years. I raised personal support from there, I went to work at compassion Canada. I went into their marketing department as a rep, grew through different management positions, eventually became their director of marketing and communications. And it just seemed like with all the organizations that I worked for, there was always this thread or theme of being able to see the finances come in, and whether that was a gifting or a blessing from God? Well, you know, it was definitely a blessing of God. My wife and I, after that, just started on muzzle docs about 11 years ago. You know, where we would coach ministries and ministry workers how to raise their personal support, and then even starting your own business, marketing your own business, and doing sales and service and all those kinds of things, I think equipped me even more to be a better coach. So through all of those experiences together that led me to where I am, evangelism is where my heart is at. And so I know if ministry workers get fully funded, then the Gospel goes for. Word and so, yeah, I love what I do.

Heather Winchell: 5:03

Yeah, that's really great.

Andy Brennan: 5:06

So let's just start from the top. Let's start big picture, and then maybe we can dial down to some of these points that you have top level question, in your opinion, what are some of the non negotiable elements of well designed training and preparation, or what are some of the things that tend to fail more often than not?

Unknown: 5:25

Yeah, so there's a number of things that I see when people begin the support raising process that if, if they aren't in place, it will lead to turning off the top in terms of raising support. So the first one would be organizations not requiring the blessing of the local church on the staff that they're hiring. Okay? So if there's there's something that goes on there, if that's not in place. Secondly, they make support raising sound like it's too easy. Okay, so they kind of make it seem simple and easy. Yeah. The other mistake they make is they make it sound a little too hard. Okay, so that, I know that seems contradictory, but there is a tension and a balance. You have to walk out there. There's a sweet spot. There is a sweet spot, yeah? And there's some things you got to talk about like it's easy, and there's some things you got to talk about like they're hard. You have to understand what's hard and what's not about support raising. And usually organizations don't have that right. The fourth thing would be, they allow or teach bad theology. They allow a culture of bad theology. Negative talk about support raising negative. Negative talk is bad theology, actually, if you unders, if you understand it, if you unpack that, yeah, yeah. And then number five, not having a clear role, goal or location is essential. So just before starting this, yeah, just yeah, just jumping in without knowing where you're going, what you're doing or what your budget is, you know that's that's a problem. Six, when support raising staff do not get proper HR processes? Okay, so that that might sound unspiritual to people, but, but I think there's some some wisdom in having some good HR deadlines and policies. And then lastly, point seven, giving staff subsidies or grants or or whatever that will be taken away at some point in their support raising process.

Andy Brennan: 7:32

So are these? Are these structured by order of like significance, or these are just kind of a bundle of things that we should be aware of? Yeah, no particular order

Unknown: 7:42

sort of a bundle, yeah, yeah,

Heather Winchell: 7:44

yeah. Well, and I know from other conversations with Aaron that actually some of the insights he has even goes beyond that. And for the purposes of our conversation, he's even, you know, brought it down to these seven points for us and Aaron, I would just really love to let you kind of sit in each one of those and unpack them a bit more before we get into our conversation.

Unknown: 8:05

Okay, all right, so we'll start. We'll go back to number one, I guess, the getting the blessing of the local church. So I had to learn this the hard way. I would accept clients into coaching who didn't have this step covered. And as I look back, I don't know that I would ever coach somebody again who didn't have this step covered. Is there somebody at your church, big or small? Is it the pastor? Is it the head of the missions committee? Is it somebody who has recognized you as being equipped for ministry? Is it something they can endorse, something they bless, even if they don't give financially? Do they recognize that this is something that you should be doing? So one of the things I always ask for from my clients is, have you got the blessing of your local church? And that that doesn't necessarily mean finances, it's just, do they see you as somebody equipped to do ministry? And so I think organizations, it's a must for them to to do a reference check with one of the spiritual leaders at the church, the pastor, the head of the missions committee, or or somebody.

Andy Brennan: 9:18

I remember talking with our one of our pastors, Heather, we go to the same church, by the way, about this topic, and he was just reflecting on some missionaries that we recently mobilized. And I won't name the organization, of course, but essentially, the feeling was, at least that the organization was saying, well done church. You have shepherded them. Well, we'll take it from here. And so the role of the of the church, like he, my pastor, I think, really wanted to speak into it, and he really wanted to be a part of that. Because we do, you know, we do care about these people that we're sending, but it felt like a very much like, okay, we're passing the baton versus, let's do this side by side. Yeah, and equip them. Well, yeah,

Unknown: 10:03

that's, that's a really good point. And you could probably do a whole nother podcast on this. You know, who has more authority, the church or the Para church, right? But I believe in the authority of the local church. I believe in the spiritual authorities that God places over us and and both are types of spiritual authority, but I think, I think church is home, and what the church can see over the acid test of time as the person's character and if this person is really equipped and fit, and so I like the idea Andy of of partnership between the sending organization and the church going forward, yeah. I think that's ideal. That's essential, yeah, yeah, ideally, yeah, for sure,

Heather Winchell: 10:48

yeah. And I think that our so I think Season Three started off with a conversation with Drew rimke, the VP of church partnerships with pioneers, and I think that's what he spoke to as well, is just ideally, there's that, that partnership and working together, but yeah, but yeah, that sound Aaron, to your first point, I think that that is, I think you said that the church has the acid test over time for character. Is that the way you said it? Yeah,

Unknown: 11:13

yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not my line. I heard that somewhere else, but yeah, but yeah, that's a test of time. Yeah, right,

Heather Winchell: 11:18

right. Your your local body, the people that you've been doing life with, more than not, will be able to speak to character over time. Yeah,

Unknown: 11:27

yeah. And Andy you, you asked if these, you know, were in any particular order. Actually, this one is in order. I would say this is number one. Okay, this should be the first step for all individuals and organizations and churches to look at.

Andy Brennan: 11:41

So if somebody, let's put a hypothetical out there. If somebody's a brand new believer, and they haven't really had a chance to put down roots over years and years and years, maybe they've been at a church. Maybe they're a college student and they just became, they just came to faith, but the Lord has called them into ministry and to raise funds and maybe to work on that campus. What would you suggest for them in that case?

Unknown: 12:06

Yeah, I think, yeah. And I think some some ministries are set up in such a way that it helps disciple new believers as they do ministry at the same time. So, you know, there's lots of nuance to this, lots of caveats to this that would need to be applied. And every situation is different. And you know, I accepted somebody into the into coaching. You know, their parents were between jobs at churches. So they, you know, do I stay at the church my parents are at right now, or do I switch to their new church? And so, you know, they're moving into adulthood themselves, and it's like, what church is my home church? So they were kind of between churches. That's a good reason to be between churches, sure, right? But if you're disgruntled, if you're if you're angry, if there's burned bridges, right? You know, there could be some issues there with with support, raising challenges, but, yeah, I think, I think there's always extenuating circumstances and yeah, just as long as everybody in no is well aware of the situation and who the person is and what their tolerance is for risk, I guess,

Heather Winchell: 13:10

yeah, it's good. Yeah, all right. So how about number two? Number

Unknown: 13:14

two, okay, they make support raising sound too easy, or they treat it like it's easy. And I think the motivation for organizations to make it sound easy is because they're looking for workers for the harvest. They don't want support raising to be daunting. They don't want it to be a barrier. They don't want it to be something that stops new workers for coming into ministry. So they would express it like, you know, support raising, we're going to help you out, but it can fit in between things and your schedule and on evenings and weekends. And, you know, you can kind of, kind of fit it in, and it's not like that. So support raising, it's akin to a part time job, right? And it's a major life project, yeah,

Andy Brennan: 13:59

it's certainly a disruption. It's disruptive Exactly, yeah,

Unknown: 14:04

yeah, yeah. So if it's not treated like a part time job or a major life project, then then it's going to be something people dabble at. And I heard a statistic that it takes 18 to 24 months for people to get the full support. That's just way too long, if they make it at all, yeah, after that length of time, it's just too long. But,

Andy Brennan: 14:23

yeah, most people don't have the fortitude to stick with it for that long. We do. We have a friend that did that over years, but I think I would say she was the exception, other than the rule, yeah,

Unknown: 14:35

it's and it, it's a roller coaster ride, it's a it's a head game. There's highs, there's lows, and you know, better, to squish that into a six or seven month period, rather than a year and a half to two year period, you know, just, just with a little bit of intensity. But some, one of the things I say to my clients is, in support raising, there's going to be pain. Yeah, there's going to be the pain. And intensity of driving towards full support, and then eventually there's the reward of hitting your goal, or there's the pain of not putting in the time, not putting in the effort, and not getting to full support. So choose your pain. Yeah, right. Do you want the pain of the hard work, or do you want the pain of of not getting the full support, right? Yeah, exactly. But

Andy Brennan: 15:25

sometimes they make fundraising seem too hard. That's

Unknown: 15:29

your next point, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So the third point is they make support raising sound too hard. So here's how they make it sound too hard. They speak about it begrudgingly. So some organizations are even saying to their own, their own staff, you know, this is hard and and then they start pandering to excuses, right? So one one might say, you know, I don't go to a big church. I go to a small church. I can't raise full support, or I haven't been a Christian long enough. I don't have the years and years of experience, or I've heard the topic of age come up as an excuse. You know, older people think it's easier for younger people to raise support. Younger people think it's easier for older people to raise support. I saw online the topic of of, you know, male or female, is it easier for one or the other? That that came up. Ethnic background came up, you know, is it? Is it harder for for different, various ethnic backgrounds? And what I tell my clients is the good news is, God is not biased. He's not prejudice. He doesn't have favorites. He doesn't call two people to ministry and say to one person, you know what you're you're called to ministry, you're going to get to full support, and you you're just as called to ministry, but because of your background, you're not going to get the full support. I've absolutely no data to support. The background matters in support. Raising the one piece of data that I do have, and I do measure and it is objective. Is people's engagement. If they're highly engaged in support raising, they tend to get the full support no matter their background. And I see this time and time again. So what I say to them, and here's kind of the balance between making it sound too easy, making it sound too hard is support. Raising is easy if you're willing to do the hard work. It's not shrouded in mystery. It's not this series of riddles that God has laid out before you that you have to unlock and solve. You know, you follow a process, you follow a plan, you work hard at it, you put in the hours, and you should get typical results.

Andy Brennan: 17:43

So you're working with a spectrum, a wide spectrum of people. You're with different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different nationalities, maybe Americans and Canadians, all the above.

Unknown: 17:56

Yes, you know, most of my coach coaching clients are North American, but they might be, you know, first or second generation newcomers to to North America, you know, something like that, yeah, for, for that model of coaching, yeah, I have a membership where there are others, but that's, that's a that's a different type of input that I'm having with them. But, but coaching clients, it's people of all different backgrounds. Um, coaching, yeah, yeah.

Heather Winchell: 18:30

Aaron, in your experience, would you say that it's certainly um, that you certainly see that sometimes people, there are different considerations that people have to take into account. But what you're encouraging them to focus on isn't, you know, messages of, I can't do this, but messages of, I can do this. The Lord has called me to this, and I'm working hard and I can do this. Is that the differentiation you're making,

Unknown: 18:55

yeah, it's whenever I have a client who says My situation is different is where is where the whenever I hear sometimes a client will keep saying that to me over and over again, and I just sort of cringe inside because I'm like, Oh, that's not a good recipe for success. You know, if they're saying My situation is different, my situation is different. It's, yeah, everybody's situation is different, but it's, it's usually not that that different. Support raising is counter cultural. It's, it's counter cultural in North America, it's counter cultural around the world. I think it's been counter cultural through all cultures throughout history and will be into the future. It's counter cultural, but it's not counter biblical. So I, what I help, try and help people to understand is that you're, no matter your background, you're going against cultural norms, and when, when the Bible asks you to do something different. Then the culture, you know, when we can respect and align with culture we should, until it disagrees biblically, and then, you know, and then we have to live in truth. But it's, you know, this is a biblical thing. This is a biblical practice to raise support, and so it transit. It's something that transcends culture and but because it's counter cultural, it is awkward, it is hard, and when you enter and support raising, it's fraught with excuses,

Heather Winchell: 20:28

yeah, and yeah. You know, I guess to to your point about just the biblical basis, I think your next point was around theology, right? Allowing your teaching bad theology. Yes,

Unknown: 20:39

yes, yeah. So you can allow or teach bad theology, or your or your organization has a culture that's guilty of negative talk. I sat in a staff meeting of an organization one time and and you know, different ones would get up to speak, and one person got up and started making jokes about support raising and, you know, just doesn't help the the support raising culture. But people say things like, like, current staff and new staff say things like, support raising is a necessary evil, you know, just get beyond this, and then you can get to your ministry assignment. They say things like, I hate asking for me. I don't mind asking for other things are for other people, but I hate asking for me. They say I can't start my ministry until I'm at full support, or I have to stop my ministry until I'm back at full support, as if it's not part of ministry, right? This one's This is a big one. I wish someone else could raise support for me so I could focus on my ministry, or a loved one might say to you, why does your organization hire somebody to raise support for you? Or the organization might say itself, I wish we could hire somebody to do this for you, and then you could focus on your ministry. They might just flat out say, I hate it, you know, and everybody's just admitting they hate it. So I know if I hear any of those things that people are coming from the wrong place, yeah, theologically, yeah. You know, this isn't what God's has for you. This isn't his will for you. He doesn't want you to begrudge it. He doesn't want you to hate it. He doesn't want you to think it's not ministry. He doesn't want you to think it's not part of the plan of of the bigger picture. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 22:17

Andy and I talk a lot about how we really feel like fundraising is part of the way God is forming us at that time, towards looking more and more like Jesus, right? I mean, whatever A believer is doing in their life, that is part of the way they are currently being formed. And if you've been called to work in support based work. It is certainly part of how God is forming you. And so we we spend a lot of air time coaching people away from it being the necessary evil and embracing it as right part of what God is doing in the formation of your own person to look more like Jesus. So yeah, yeah, we wholeheartedly agree with that,

Unknown: 22:59

yeah. And that's huge. What you just said to make you more like Jesus, God could drop the money in your lap. He doesn't. He doesn't need you to go through this 678, 12, month, two year long process, just depending. He could drop the money in your lap. So why does he take you through a process that humbles you, that makes you vulnerable, that grows your faith, that challenges to get out of your own skin, helps you to realize that ministry is a team sport, not an individual sport, is to make you more like Jesus, yeah, and it's he's actually preparing you through this for The Ministry ahead, right? And to grow your faith. And you know what ministry is a team sport. It's not an individual, right?

Andy Brennan: 23:46

It's not about you, and how healthy is that? Right? You walk onto the the mission field, or onto your your location, or whatever, with that understanding already rooted in place that this isn't about me.

Heather Winchell: 23:59

Yep, absolutely so number five,

Unknown: 24:02

number five not having a clear role, goal or location. So here's another mistake that I've made, and I won't enter into a coaching partnership with somebody until they have these three things established. And again, there's always, you know, situations of exception, but for the most part, you know, you might have a young couple they want to give their heart and their lives to ministry, and they pick an organization that they love, and right now, that organization just doesn't have a place for them to go. So they're hired and this, and they're told start support raising, and we'll eventually work out where you're going to go, and then where you go will depend on what you do there, and then that will depend on how much money we need to raise. So there's a there's a whole bunch of of problems with that. There's a. Natural complication to that. There's some spiritual implications to that. But from an from a natural standpoint, this is just from a marketing perspective, this is bad messaging and marketing. If you can't tell people what you're going to do, where you're going to go, how much you need to raise, yeah, it's not a good thing. So I don't know if you've ever seen the show Shark Tank, but when an entrepreneur stands in front of the sharks, the pitch make their pitch, and they don't know their numbers and they don't know their strategy, this isn't a good thing, right? So I think

Andy Brennan: 25:33

in a similar way, and sometimes we have individuals who are working for an organization where you have to be very careful about mentioning the location of service, but even then, they know I'm going to be serving in Southeast Asia, or I'll be, you know, that's right, they

Unknown: 25:48

know. They know, and God knows. So it's not that, it's not that the the audience doesn't know, or the supporters or potential donors don't know, but I think it's be, you know, the the person who is going to go and the organization, they don't, they don't really know. So I think there's a spiritual implication in there that begs the question, have have we gone to God? Have we heard from him? Do we have clear marching orders? Are we able to move forward in faith, or is it just kind of, well, if it happens, you know, we'll just kind of see, see what happens. But I think, I think it's important to be driven like a freight train towards something and and to have that clear. I think, I think that's important to put, to put before the Lord, or to have between you and the Lord,

Heather Winchell: 26:35

that clarity, yeah, yeah. And

Andy Brennan: 26:39

the next one kind of seems tied to that as far as like the organization is maybe not giving you goals, they're also maybe not giving you accountability.

Unknown: 26:48

Yeah, so So HR processes and accountability and deadlines and and policies. You know, are there deadlines, or are you just allowed to raise support forever, until maybe sort of kind of make it in three to five years, you know? But, but is there a process? Is is this taken seriously? Is there accountability? So the organization that I work with that I see as having the best HR department, where my average client would get about get to about 113% of their support, if they're moderately to highly engaged, and they do that in about 340 hours, give or take something like that. This organization with sharp HR processes, their staff, get to about 120% of their support, and they do it in over 100 hours faster, so something like 220 hours. Wow, wow. Yeah. So some, some of the things they do, which is interesting is, is they'll pay minimum wage in the support raising process. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, so that allows the person to have a part time job, and then to be working part time with the organization and have a full income through the support raising process, which I think really helps them to focus but it also, you know, the the organization is taking a risk, but it's not a it's not a big risk, because the probationary period is 100 hours. So after 100 hours, that staff person is evaluated, how are they doing? How much support have they raised? If that looks good, then they have another probationary period of another 100 hours. So that brings them up to 200 hours. And this, this organization also has a lot of manager accountability. So, so I coach them, and the sessions are every other week, but a manager or a supervisor is also checking in sure and looking at their action plan and seeing where they're at. And so there's that sort of that double accountability happening, but after 200 hours, you know, their average staff are 220 or so hours getting to full support, so they're almost there right by the end of 200 hours. But you know, there are there. There are deadlines. They are willing to make difficult decisions if people aren't engaging. You know, that type of thing that's

Andy Brennan: 29:17

so interesting to me. Why do you think that receiving a minimum wage is is motivating? What is it about that, that that really moves people forward?

Unknown: 29:29

Well, I think that one of the biggest things is it gives them the time that's necessary to support raise. Okay, so one of the things I ask for from my clients is is two and a half days per week and not not evening and weekend hours. So I'm talking about business hours, you know, kind of two and a half days per week to really put towards their support raising. So that's hard if you've got a family to support, or you've got expenses and bills to pay and that type of thing. So the. You know, the minimum wage is still, you know, probably a sacrifice for somebody, because they could be making more in the marketplace, sure, than in career ministry, but it does help augment their part time pay that allows them to have the time to be able to invest into their support raising. So it sort of, I think it sort of frees them a little bit to be able to do

Heather Winchell: 30:20

that. Yeah, it literally makes support raising their part time paid job,

Andy Brennan: 30:24

right? And maybe that was what I was getting at too, is maybe that's just a mental shift where I'm actually getting paid for this. This is my job right now, versus something that keeps the cracks.

Unknown: 30:35

Yeah, and that's a really good point, because I think you are in a different headspace when you're being paid and you're accountable, you're accountable for your output. Yeah, you know, it's not. Whereas if you're not paid, you kind of go, Well, I've, you know, I've got these bills to pay. I will get to my support raising when I can. Maybe I can put a few hours in on Saturday, right? Maybe I can do a few hours Wednesday night. But if you have two and a half work days, I think it's just a different headspace. So

Andy Brennan: 31:05

are they, like, logging in with it, with a time sheet, and like, how detailed does it get? Do you know?

Unknown: 31:12

I'm not, actually not sure what that organization does. I keep track of their time on on the action plan. So gotcha, I keep track of our meeting hours, and I keep and they report on their action plan, how many hours are actually spending on their support raising Okay, so I track those hours, but I would imagine this organization has so many great processes in place that they're tracking that. Yeah, yeah.

Heather Winchell: 31:38

That is really cool. That is a really proactive way for an organization to like show practically like, hey, we really believe in this calling. We're going to come alongside you and support you as you move towards it. That's really cool. Yeah, such

Andy Brennan: 31:52

a such a juxtaposition, like the intentionality of that model versus we all have to do this, and it's a necessary evil, so just, let's get through it. Yeah, the contrast is, is shocking, yeah.

Heather Winchell: 32:08

So

Unknown: 32:09

it is interesting. The risk is the organization's risk to take, right? The money does eventually come out of the ministry workers account. Okay, so again, it's a very, very low risk for the organization. So you take minimum wage wherever that is, where you live, multiply it by 100 hours, that's your first investment of risk. But if the person is moderately the highly engaged, they're not even going to notice that come out of their account. They're gonna raise that right? That money, 1500 to $1,700 whatever it is, very, very quickly, yeah. So it's very low risk. It just, yeah, it just frees the person, puts them in a different mindset. And you really help your people to launch with something like this.

Heather Winchell: 32:59

Absolutely, it sounds like it.

Andy Brennan: 33:00

So the narrow, the narrow risk is, if the individual bails for whatever reason after like 90 hours, and they just take the money and run but

Unknown: 33:12

after, but after 90 hours, they will have raised more than what they cost in terms of minimum wage, yeah, and and some of the other startup expenses. If it's like Canada, that money is not the individual's money, it's the organization's right money, right? So it's not like the person walks away with whatever's raised after 80 or 90 hours that money, yeah, stays legally with the organization. Yeah? So I think it's brilliant. I think it's innovative, and it feels like a win. Win solves a lot of problems, yeah?

Andy Brennan: 33:47

So differentiate that, then, from an organization that subsidizes

Unknown: 33:54

Yeah. So, so that's the seventh thing, is when a when an organization subsidizes somebody, I think it a lot of organizations do this when they have a role to fulfill in the organization that they they think requires special skills, maybe somebody in the head office, maybe an accounting position. I'm just, you know, giving, giving some examples, and they want that person to raise support and generate full support eventually, but they need that person now, and so they say, we're going to subsidize you for the first year. I would, I think I would rather see them contract that work out, you know, to a firm or whatever, to get that, to get that work done, rather than hiring somebody and say, Well, you can raise support over time, because I think it squashes the support raising process. Okay, that person starts into their position, they begin bringing value to the organization. Support raising is a discipline, so it's the thing that keeps getting pushed off to the side. Side gets pushed off to the side as the as the tyranny of the urgent. You know, in the in the outreach component creeps in, and they just never get around to raising their support. So I think it creates an unhealthy dependence. I think it's demoralizing to staff. Some organizations will even show accounts going into the into a deficit, like this person owes them money, and that's such a heavy weight for them, for them to carry. And it's like, no, it's not. You don't owe us that money, but if you ever generated it, we would like that paid back, right? It can divide staff, right? Some staff have to raise support. Some staff don't that that's a tricky line to walk. But I think the biggest thing is, when you do that, it it likely gets in the way of what God wants to do in that person's life, like the things that we talked about before, God wants to them, to grow in vulnerability, in being humble, in putting themselves out there, in facing rejection, in becoming more bold, more courageous, growing their faith, and ultimately becoming more like Jesus. It's almost like the organization steps between the staff person and what God might want to do in their lives because it's urgent and it's kingdom. You know, we're all ambassadors of Christ, no matter what what we're doing. But, yeah, this is a, it's a ministry position, and I think there's things God wants to do because of that in that person's life to prepare them for future ministry. So

Andy Brennan: 36:40

what solutions or what recommendations? Let's say that somebody finds themselves in a situation where they realize, oh, this, this, they're talking about me. They're on the receiving end of this care, lack thereof. Like, what can they what can they do? Like, is there any recourse for the individual? Or are we kind of just focusing on let's, let's think about these things, or think about these values and give them to an organization.

Unknown: 37:06

Yeah, so if the organization doesn't have these things in place, certainly the individual ministry worker can try and follow these principles themselves. Like, for example, your organization may not require you to go to the church, yeah, and get their blessing. You know, it's actually amazing how many organizations don't. It's like the church is left completely out of the equation. And I always do an interview with my clients before I start to coach them, and I'll say, Have you talked to your church? Does your pastor know what you're doing? Does your missions leader know what you're doing? And sometimes the answer is no, no. They don't. I don't think they really know what, what I'm up to. It's like, okay, well, there's something that you can do, go talk to your church first, make sure that you're submitting to their spiritual authority, and that you're kind of getting the green light from them. So that's something they they could do sure, you know, they could do things to help change their mindset, you know, with support, raising being too easy or too hard, you know, yeah, read the books, study the theology. I'm being biased, but get a coach, you know, get somebody to help with you and walk with you through this, you know, and to do that so, you know, there's lots of things that they could they could do on their own by reading and studying and and finding a mentor or a coach. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 38:28

is there a point where you would recommend, you know, actually, I think you might want to reconsider your organization, like, are there things you've seen in working with people that it just felt like from the organization point it was so unhealthy that it feels like in order to faithfully steward their ministry, they would need to identify another organization. Have you seen that?

Unknown: 38:51

I have not seen that personally, or had to deal with that personally that I can think of, but I imagine it definitely exists. And I imagine there is definitely a point where you would have to go, you know what the values here just don't align.

Andy Brennan: 39:14

And maybe it's that the organizations, typically, they have, like one or two or three of these top seven, not typically all seven of them. Yeah, they

Unknown: 39:23

might have some of these things in place that they're doing well, right? But if they're missing any of the top seven, and you know, as as Heather was saying before, you know, these are just the top seven I've picked for this conversation, there's way more things that are implications. But if you, if you're doing a few of these top seven things, it's, it's, that's good, you're on your way. But I would be trying to do all of these top seven things if you can at least. Yeah. I mean, the goal is to just to keep, keep getting better, keep getting better. And I think you'll save yourself a lot of issues actually going forward. Yeah.

Heather Winchell: 40:00

You might not be able to answer this, but I'm just so curious what number eight would have been.

Unknown: 40:06

Number eight. Number eight was treating a coach as optional. Oh, okay, yeah. Like, some people think they can just go support, raise, like, like, like, cutting the lawn, you know, tell me where the gas goes, tell me to turn it on, and I'll figure this out. It's way bigger than that. Somebody might be able to get the full support on their own. But can they sustain it long term? Can they sustain it for their career? Are they doing it in a way that's going to lead to wellness? You know, throughout their ministry career, maybe they raise full support, but it's just something they hate. So, yeah, I would recommend a coach to do this, you know, either internally or externally, have somebody mentoring you walk in with you, yeah, just what? Yeah, it's not something you should just do on your own. The odd person can pull it off, but it's, it's, it's hard just to do it on your own.

Heather Winchell: 41:02

I would wholeheartedly agree. I really just think that coaching is such an invaluable gift to have in many spheres in life, certainly in this as well. I'm wondering, though, whether you've ever experienced people that kind of come to coaching because they have to, versus people that actually have vision for know this will help me, because I do feel like sometimes, if people think themselves, look, I just need you to tell me where to put the gas and how to turn it on, and you try to coach them. They're not always receptive. Versus, like, when people have seen like, oh, actually, I do need to coach. This is hard then, yeah, then it actually is a much better, effective relationship. I don't know. What do you think?

Unknown: 41:49

Well, here, this is very interesting. Most of the people I coach have to take the coaching so. So there's one organization, the organization that where I talked about their HR policies, all of their new staff have to take the coaching. Okay? And then there's another organization I work with, probably a name you would know as well. Their staff have to have a really, really good reason not to take the coaching. So basically, it's, it's basically, it's a policy there as well. So, so most of the people that I that I coach, have to take it, because if it's left up to the individual, do you want this coaching, you know, and there's a little bit of a fee for it and all of that, do you want to? Do you want to take this coaching? If it's left up to them, they don't take it, yeah, which is, which is very interesting, if it's part of the organization's process from the very beginning. Hey, here are all the things that you need to do to onboard. You're going to take cultural training. You're going to take, you know, these child protection policies. You're going to be doing this, this, and that you got to do this, read these books, for credentialing, all these types of things, and you have to take this coaching new staff. Go, okay, sure, great. They don't even, they don't even question it, unless the question is brought to them. And then, you know, and then they go, Well, maybe I'll try and do that on my own, save a little bit of money or or whatever.

Andy Brennan: 43:17

That's the thing. If somebody doesn't have it mandatory, and they tend to be more thrifty. They're going to look at their budget and say, Well, why would I want to pay somebody to help me raise money? Why would I want to add more cost? I'm just trying to get by.

Unknown: 43:35

That's right, yeah, and that makes sense from a certain point. When it comes to coaching, there's something about a coach, though, where it brings accountability. You've committed to it, you're investing in it. There's a different level of engagement from you when you have a coach. You know, I always think about Michael Phelps. I don't know who his coach was, but he probably had a coach beside the pool, yeah, with him, you know, one of the most decorated Olympic athletes, it's like, here's like the best swimmer in the world, and he's got a coach, right? So a coach will just help you get there faster and better and will resource you, and you'll be just that much better equipped. Yeah, yeah. Well,

Heather Winchell: 44:19

which is why his eighth point was that organizations should, like, have it be just part of the process, as opposed to an option. Yeah, that's great.

Unknown: 44:28

Yeah, yeah. You don't throw somebody in the pool and expect them to swim without training them how to do it first. Yeah, right. And lots of times, organizations just, you know, come back when you've raised your full support and we'll we'll place you, right? Yeah,

Andy Brennan: 44:44

tough, right?

Heather Winchell: 44:45

Because, as you said earlier, it's counter cultural. It's not something that we in other spheres have like learned to do, necessarily. There's a lot of skills that you use in support, raising that you use in other areas, communication, people navigate. Conversation, prayer. I mean, there's so many skills that you bring into that, saying thank you yes, saying thank you, yes and but yeah, it's, it's still a very counter cultural thing and a very difficult thing to navigate alone. And I would even say, not only do you need a coach, but you need kind of a core team of people that are alongside you in prayer and in advocacy and in a variety of areas. So

Unknown: 45:27

yeah, we're created for community, absolutely, and yeah, to have many voices, positive voices that are helping ministry workers to launch is so essential. Organizations will give them every other voice, usually, but the support raising voice, that's the one that you know, that's the one that maybe is left out, but it's the funding model. It's the foundation for the gospel to go forward. So

Andy Brennan: 45:59

a little bit of a detour here. Aaron, but yes, recently, we reviewed a white paper spearheaded by our friend Amy Young at global trellis. Shout Out survey participants were asked, quote, unquote, do you have an issue or issues that, if your organization knew about it you worry might jeopardize your ability to stay on the field or work in the home office? And I think they, they surveyed, you know, just around 360 people, if you had to guess, how many do you think in fact, affirmed that they did fear that their organization might send them home if they knew this secret about them or shortcoming.

Unknown: 46:45

Okay, so this is a total guess. I would guess 80% hmm, they maybe 80% would have that, that issue, or whatever. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 46:59

so I looked this up prior to recording today, just to make sure I was right. But it's around 50

Andy Brennan: 47:05

okay. Oh, okay. And they span kind of a variety of topics,

Unknown: 47:10

variety of topics, yeah. And the only reason I gave 80% is just following the 2080 principle. Oh, yeah. I just assumed, you know, as a guess. But, yeah, yeah, that's but 50% is still scarily high, yeah, yeah,

Heather Winchell: 47:25

yeah. And actually, I guess you know what, this kind of takes me back to a question I had for you that I didn't ask earlier, Aaron, but a lot of these areas of note that you've expressed around organizations and the way that they're training is the impact of that pretty recognizable early on? Like, would you say, you know, what that it really even affects people before they get funded? Or is this the kind of thing that becomes kind of a crisis later? What do you think? I

Unknown: 47:53

think most of those things pop up during the support raising process and through experience. You know, some of you heard me say on some of those topics that I wouldn't even begin coaching people who haven't talked to their church, they don't have a budget, they don't have a role, they don't have a location. You know, there's just thing that there's just no point in even beginning, right? Coaching, right? I think some of those things you see very early on in the process.

Heather Winchell: 48:24

So maybe not the kinds of things that are coming to what this survey is talking about in terms of like, the more long term. But yeah, and if

Andy Brennan: 48:32

I remember correctly, the financial issues were high on the list as well.

Heather Winchell: 48:37

Yes, financial issues were high. There was a lot of reference to people using credit cards to float their needs because they didn't have adequate support, people not investing in any kind of savings, which kind of you know, you said that people, if they have the option to look at their budget and cut out a coach, then they might because they don't want to spend more. And it's the same with decisions around saving or planning, you know, whether it's from a desire to be a really good steward and maybe over realizing that to their own detriment, or if it's just not wanting to do the work of more. You know, there's all kinds of reasons, but, but, yeah, um, finances was a significant part of that, that survey,

Unknown: 49:18

which is another good reason for HR processes, right? Right? That that maybe includes investing for the future, includes an emergency fund, right, so that people are equipped and protected and prepared when they're on the field. Yeah, and, you know, the the perception, again, is support raising is hard. Well, it's hard, it's hard work, but it's not hard to generate the finances. And I know that might sound a little bit funny to some people, but it's not rocket surgery, like we know what that's right. That's right. If you follow a process and you put in the hours, you know again, you should see, you should see typical results, but if you have HR accountability with. Some of these protective measures, perhaps you mitigating some of these, yeah, these issues that

Andy Brennan: 50:04

credit card one is tough for me. Yeah, hard. That's really hard. Any I see it on short term situations too. We talked about with some some short term strategies. But if this is your first, like, big trip, and you're raising several 1000s of dollars, the temptation is, like, I didn't have time to do it. I'll just throw it on a credit card. But I see short term fundraising as like a stepping stone to long term fundraising. And if you're establishing those habits now, you're not really getting into a good place of of all these things that we talked about, of relying on the Lord for provision and it not being about you, about mobilizing the church, about all those things. So, man,

Heather Winchell: 50:45

that's tough. And you know, so Andy and I talk a lot about fundraising as formation, but it's not just for the individual, it's for the church as well. And you know, most short term opportunities, or maybe not most, but certainly local churches are often sending people into short term opportunities. And so what an absence of extending a gift to your congregation, to Yeah, to like, rely on your own means only, and to not invite them into being part of that. It's

Andy Brennan: 51:12

not about just my ministry, right, but our ministry, yeah, it's good.

Heather Winchell: 51:16

Well, Aaron, I'm really grateful for the work that you put into distilling what you've seen in your years of coaching down into those points. And I think that that will be really helpful for people as they just kind of assess the health of their own the way that they're approaching this, maybe see some of their own mindset and how that can shift. And I would just love to know, by way of encouragement, what else would you want to say to our listeners as they persevere in support based ministry,

Unknown: 51:41

I would say you're doing a great thing. The Church needs you as an example of people who are willing to forsake the comforts of your home and family and to maybe go somewhere else around the world that's new to you that's maybe a little bit uncomfortable, but the church needs you as an example for our growth. You help us to become better, local Christians, nationally minded Christians and global Christians, and so just stick with it. Support raising like I say it's it's hard work, but work hard at it, put in the time, put in the hours, generate your full support and and make yourself under the umbrella of God's provision sustainable in ministry, so that the Gospel goes forward. Awesome. But put simply, you can do it. You can do it with God's help. You can do it. Yeah, yeah.

Andy Brennan: 52:46

Well, Aaron, it's been a blessing to chat with a kindred spirit, someone who's so aligned that's that's fantastic. And listener, we hope that you saw this conversation as productive and not destructive, that there are other ways to do it, if you're in the middle of this kind of a situation, that don't just kind of assume that this because it's done this way, it has to be done this way. Maybe it can be agents for change, and

Heather Winchell: 53:12

God, has always worked through broken systems. 100%

Unknown: 53:17

100% Yeah, yeah. That's the good news. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely

Andy Brennan: 53:27

it's not about the money. Is presented by provisio fundraising solutions. Provisio equips support based workers with flexible training, practical resources and one on one coaching. Find out more at provisio fundraising.com you