47. Fundraising, Fatigue, and the Faith to Keep Going: Dr Mandy on "Is it worth it?"

In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Mandy returns to share her ongoing journey in ministry and fundraising. The conversation explores how ministry fundraising transcends mere numbers—it's about personal formation, genuine partnerships, and living out one’s calling. Dr. Mandy recounts her early introduction to support-based ministry, her refreshing re-engagement with longtime partners (including a memorable 5000-mile road trip), and the lessons learned from her leadership challenges. Interwoven with rich Scripture readings (notably from Second Corinthians and other Biblical passages), the discussion offers spiritual encouragement and practical insights on overcoming doubt, resisting the temptation to “fix” everything, and staying true to God’s word. Listeners are encouraged to lean into community, continuously study Scripture, and trust that every step—even the hard ones—is part of a greater divine plan.

Recommended Resources Mentioned:

• Perspectives courses (visit perspectives.org)
• Books: Mountain Rain by Eileen Fraser Crossman and The Prayer of Faith by James O. Fraser
• Scripture study tools: Logos, NAVS, Precept.org

Other Scripture for Reference:

• Revelation 15:3 
• 1 Chronicles 29:11-13
• 1 Chronicles 16:31 
• Psalm 9:7-10
• Psalm 103:19-22
• Psalm 96
• Psalm 93:1-5
• 1 Timothy 1:17
• 1 Timothy 6:15-16
• Isaiah 44:6-9
• Psalm 145:8-13
• 1 Corinthians 15:20-28
• Zechariah 9:9
• John 18:36-37
• Hebrews 1:3-4
• Hebrews 1:8-12

If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your network. Follow It’s Not About the Money for more insightful discussions on faith-based fundraising and support raising!

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

If you're beginning to question where you are and what you're doing and whether or not it's worth it, also just lift your eyes to the hills and remember that your help comes from the Lord who made heaven and earth. He doesn't sleep. He is your helper and your keeper, and everything you do for him is worth it.

Heather Winchell: 0:22

You What if fundraising is not just about the bottom line. What if it is about who you become and what you believe in the process, and what if the journey is bigger than you and your ministry?

Andy Brennan: 0:35

Welcome to season four of it's not about the money. Join us as we examine elements of ministry fundraising through the unique lens of personal formation. Let's dive in.

Heather Winchell: 0:53

Welcome back. We are in the midst of a mini series looking at soundtracks or the things that we believe, and really trying to reframe those things. Because, as we've said before, we live at the mercy of our ideas, the things that we believe, the way that takes shape, the way we hold on to it, it really matters. So in today's episode, we are tackling a popular soundtrack that starts with this. Is this worth it? Does it really matter. It can be hard to discern whether the difficulty or disruption that we're experiencing is an indicator that something is wrong or on the complete opposite end, if it's actually very much an affirmation that you are exactly where God wants you, we know that this life will have troubles and that we have a real enemy opposed to the good news. Still, sometimes we wonder if our suffering matters, or whether the sacrifices in comparison to sometimes such small gains are worth it. Our guest today comes with a word of encouragement, friends, don't lose heart.

Andy Brennan: 1:56

And today we are joined again by Dr Mandy, and she joined us last season as a recap guest, and if you've heard that episode, you could understand why we had to have her back. And again, we are omitting her last name to protect her anonymity based on the countries she needs to access. So Dr Mandy, let's just start with a bit about you as a refresher. Can you share your story with our listeners. How did you enter into support based ministry?

Unknown: 2:26

Yeah, first, let me just say thank you for having me back. I really appreciate it. I'm so excited to be with you today. So my story is short and simple. I knew from a young age that I would be in full time ministry. I grew up in a home with parents and grandparents and people in a small fellowship who just encouraged me in it. But support based was not something I knew or understood until after I graduated from university, I took a perspectives class in 2002 that opened my eyes to broader work among the nations, and it introduced me to support based organizations. So that's where it started for me. The first organization I worked for was mobilization focused org. It no longer exists, but when it did exist, it sought to mobilize the Western Church for prayer and work among the nation. My work there actually really enhance my love for and develop my skills in research and anthropology. It actually is even more specifically, I guess, what gave me a love for ethnography of peoples and cultures, and so that's how it all got started.

Heather Winchell: 3:35

And I know you've just completed kind of another round of support raising, because you were headed back overseas after being stateside for a few years. Part of that was getting your doctoral degree, which we'll speak to in a moment. But how was that recent experience for you in kind of re engaging and getting back

Andy Brennan: 3:55

out there? And how is it different than your first time?

Unknown: 3:59

Yeah, so first of all, it was a lovely experience. I put over 5000 miles on my car. Wow, of October, but it was totally worth it. I went and I just engaged with people who have been partnering with me in ministry since 2005 some of them I hadn't seen in 10 years or longer, and so I just made it my. My heart's desire was to go where they were, and a lot of them had moved. And so I tried really hard to go where a lot of those people were and met with them. And honestly, for me, it was so much more of just getting back into the why I do what I do, and getting to share that story again, but it was as much listening to them and why they do what they do as well, and how their lives and even the finances or the prayer that they give for me and the work that I do, how it benefits who they are and what they do in their daily lives and their ministry. As well. And so it was a huge blessing. I have definitely seen the fruit of it, and I've just been humbled by

Andy Brennan: 5:06

it. And I wonder if you would have gone to the effort to put 5000 miles on your car, if you weren't in the fundraising stage again to see everybody to re engage.

Unknown: 5:16

I really doubt that I would have. I don't think I would have because, you know, I mean, I was overseas for a decade, and I wasn't doing that, so it so, yeah, because I was had to go back and kind of I wasn't starting from scratch, but I needed to raise a nice little chunk of change to get back overseas and and so I had to, I had to start over with a with that fresh mindset. I went through a lot of the books that you guys have recommended and the resources that you recommend here, and reread through some stuff, and just started praying differently again, and that was really helpful. I feel refreshed in fundraising at the moment. So, yeah, it's been good. Well,

Andy Brennan: 5:54

I just love that partnership development forces you to kind of re engage the body and get back those communities,

Heather Winchell: 6:01

yeah. Well, and to speak to what you just said, I can remember sitting down with you kind of midstream or before you took to the road, but I could just sense from you that it didn't feel like a burden. You weren't anxious, you were excited, you were expectant, you were resting in what the Lord would provide. And so I'm really glad that this was a positive and refreshing experience for you.

Unknown: 6:28

You too. It was, it was really great. Just re engaging with people face to face, not over zoom, not over a phone call, yeah, but in their homes or in a coffee shop, whatever it took. It was worth it, just to hug them, you know, and pray with them, and just say thank you. And in that many of them introduced me to new partners, and that that was not my expectation. And so I was grateful for what the Lord brought out of that, the fruit that he brought out

Andy Brennan: 6:55

of that. Well, they know you, they like you, they trust you. They have given to you for so that's like the natural culmination that we were talking about with Mary. Refer, yeah, awesome that it just happened organically. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 7:08

yeah. Very cool. Well, yeah. So I know that you've recently re engaged this because you have been in the States for a season pursuing your doctoral degree. For any of those that haven't heard that episode, Could you summarize again, your doctoral emphasis and passion?

Unknown: 7:29

So I have a Doctorate of Education in organizational change and leadership. And what that actually means is that I enjoy looking at systems and structures that organizations, schools, fellowships, businesses, etc, the all these different entities that they use. I like to look at their systems and structures, and I work with leaders in those systems and structures to connect with the heart of the people to ensure they are actually producing the fruit that they want to achieve. So I get excited to work with leaders and administrators in other countries cultures, observe and listen to how they work in their systems, and then help them review those systems and walk them through leadership values that might be adjusted to their cultural identity, but help them produce positive fruit within their own Local systems and structures and so that's in a nutshell, kind of what my emphasis and passion is. Very cool.

Andy Brennan: 8:26

I like that. Yeah, it's not structured just for the sake of structure. Yeah, right. And

Heather Winchell: 8:31

this is likely something that will be very helpful even in your next assignment when you're headed to Central Asia, right?

Unknown: 8:39

Absolutely. Yeah. So even in Central Asia, my CV has gone out to a number of schools to work with departments who are needing leaders, who are looking for leadership, maybe deans of different schools and different language programs and things like that. And so my goal will be to work with those administrations to help them figure out ways to produce outcomes and set goals and meet those goals according to good leadership values.

Heather Winchell: 9:07

I'm excited to hear more about that once it's in motion. So like I said, I had the opportunity to sit down with you last year. During that time, we started chatting about what you had been learning and thinking on from Second Corinthians four, and we thought that could be a really wonderful thing to bring into our conversation today. So I'm wondering if you could read that for us and then tell us a bit about why this particular passage has struck you.

Unknown: 9:35

Yeah. So I will just read from Second Corinthians four. This is from that New American Standard Version. Therefore, since we have this ministry, we have received mercy. We do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the Word of God, but by the manifestation of truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God and. Even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ, Jesus is Lord and ourselves as your bond servants, for Jesus' sake, for God, who said light shall shine out of darkness, is the one who has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in urban vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed, perplexed but not despairing, persecuted, but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed, always caring about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death, for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death works in us, but life in you, but having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I believed, therefore I spoke, we also believe. Therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus, and will present us with you, for all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God. Therefore we do not lose heart. But though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory, far beyond all comparison, While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. So this, this passage of Second Corinthians four, is really important to me, because there are moments in my ministry when losing heart can come very easily, but I need to remember that every aspect of my life and ministry, whether that is being on the field as a worker, sharing the good news and building disciples, or being at home sharing with others about the work the father has called me to building A partnership base for prayer and finances, or sitting in a coffee shop and just connecting with random people around me, it is all a privilege and an honor. Therefore, the mercy that I receive from Christ, my Savior, my salvation, my opportunities and my blessings, they should be what keeps me getting up every morning, spending time in his word and in prayer and being reminded that every moment of every day is a gift in a ministry. Everything I do, every day I live, has an eternal purpose, and that has to be my daily mindset. I have to tell you that everything I say here today is just me reminding myself of what it is to live this way. I, in no way, shape or form, have this perfective and I am constantly having to be reminded of this kind of like we all are. You know, as a body of Christ, we're constantly being reminded of the good news. That's why the Epistles keep repeating the gospel to us in all these different ways, so we don't forget it, you know? And this the same with not losing heart. We have to keep reminding ourselves of it every day.

Andy Brennan: 13:47

Yeah, for me, it seems like the passage becomes more valuable, more moving. If I have struggled with these things in the past, if I've struggled with losing heart

Heather Winchell: 14:00

into what you just said, you know, the questions we were asking the soundtrack. Does this matter? Is it worth it? I think that whenever you can just start your day realizing today is a gift. I'm alive today. There is purpose in that. It does matter. There's breath in my lung today, and so it just as a baseline, acknowledging you've given me life today, I'm grateful for that. That's already kind of reframing. Is it worth it? You know, right? And even verse

Andy Brennan: 14:28

16, therefore we don't give up. Because it feels like, if you're on the mission field, and not just the mission field, in any kind of ministry, or, I guess, just in life, like most of us at some point have felt like giving up absolutely

Unknown: 14:44

but when we stop and take our eyes off of ourselves and put our eyes back on him, that changes it strengthens us. Is what it does, and so giving up doesn't become as much of an option anymore.

Heather Winchell: 14:58

Yeah, because. As when our gaze is on Jesus, the person of Jesus, and not necessarily the outcome or what it is that we feel like we need to produce, then we're really free to not be looking at the outcome or our production as the measure of whether something's worth it, right, right?

Andy Brennan: 15:19

Dr Mandy, I'm wondering if there was a point when you were on the field when you could speak to like I felt like I needed to to give up where I was led to that extreme. Yeah,

Unknown: 15:33

absolutely. I wanted to give up being a teacher. I wanted to give up being a teammate. I wanted to give up being a leader. I remember there was one time I had been the leader over our country, in the team in our country for about a year. I took over after a pretty intense transition, and the previous leader did not leave on good terms, and the team wasn't super thrilled with new leadership. It didn't matter who it was going to be so that first year was really hard, and I had teachers, not so much just they weren't upset with me, per se, but there was a lot of tension with one another on the team, and we had multiple conflicts happening, and I just did not sign up for that. I signed up to engage with students, to engage with local people, and here I was taking on a leadership role, and the locals had to come second to teammates at that point, especially in leadership. And I was ready to throw in the towel and say, All right, this is how it's going to be. I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah, and I had a housemate at the time who did not work with my company or my organization, so she was on the outside looking in, but she was my housemate, and she was really good about quietly and calmly asking me questions to help me process and challenge through but this one time, she made a statement, and the statement was, Mandy, you're not a savior. Well, my first response was, duh, not a savior. But the reality was, I was acting like it, and when I was acting like it as a leader, then all of a sudden I and I couldn't control everything. I couldn't make sure everybody was happy and things were going the way they were going. Then I kept losing the motivation to move forward, because nothing was happening my way, and I was trying to be the sovereign one, you know. And that statement, after the steam came off of my out of my ears, and she said it, and I settled down a little bit, I realized that I was trying to be the savior of this team and make it all work. And that's why I wanted to give up, because I was making it about me, and it wasn't. And once I got to a place where I was willing to let that go, it changed everything. And I didn't want to give up anymore. I was willing to face the challenges and ultimately just to bend the knee to the cross and let God do his thing in in every single person on that team, not just like as a team as a whole, but also in each individual. So

Andy Brennan: 18:29

succinctly, how would you if you had to paraphrase that soundtrack that you were telling yourself, what would you say that, like, I need to be a savior? That was what you were telling yourself kind of subconsciously

Heather Winchell: 18:42

or I didn't sign up for this.

Unknown: 18:45

Yeah. More of yeah, this is not. This was not what I signed up for. Was a huge part of it. You

Heather Winchell: 18:51

know, though, I am struck by the fact that whenever we find ourselves in a situation where we're just at our end, we want to give up that is actually a really ripe place for us to depend on God, like when we hit our finitude, our limit, whatever it is. I mean, that's like exactly where we see this efficiency and the infinite good power whatever, but and so even when we find ourselves in that place with that broken soundtrack, man, what a gift that we serve at God that in that place that's actually a really blessed place, because it positions us to so clearly Need and depend on him.

Andy Brennan: 19:41

So verse one says, Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God we do not lose heart. Starts with therefore, and as we all know to ask, what is the therefore there for it points to not losing heart because we have this ministry by the mercy of God. Yeah. So we'd love to hear you expand on that a little bit.

Unknown: 20:04

Yeah. So the question is, what is the kind of quote, unquote, ministry that Paul is talking about? So we have to actually go back to the beginning of Second Corinthians here. And so we see in chapter three, he's talking specifically about the ministry of the New Covenant, right? It brings life, righteousness, freedom, liberty. And he shows us that this ministry is a gift. It's a privilege that we receive from Him. And so he actually, in First Timothy, he tells Timothy about what it is to be given a ministry, and I'm going to read to you first, Timothy, chapter one, verse 12 through 17, I thank Christ, Jesus, our Lord, who has granted me the needed strength and made me able for this because he considered me faithful and trustworthy, putting me into service for this ministry, even though I was formerly a blasphemer of our Lord and a persecutor of his church and a shameful and outrageous and violent aggressor toward believers, yet I was shown mercy because I acted out of ignorance and unbelief the grace of our Lord, his amazing unmerited favor and blessing flowed out in super abundance for me, together with the faith and love which are realized in Christ Jesus, this is a faithful and trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance and approval that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners among whom I am the foremost. Yet for this reason, I found mercy so that in me, as the foremost of sinners, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example or pattern for those who would believe in Him for eternal life, now to the king of the ages, eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, the honor and glory, forever and ever, amen. And I think when we talk about this ministry and what it is not to lose heart, we see in Second Corinthians four, there's a couple different versions, like Andy, you just read a version that said we never give up. That's from a passage. And then we see in some other versions, someone translates, do not lose our motivation, or do not become discouraged, spiritless, disappointed or afraid. And so in chapter one of Second Corinthians, Paul tells them that they have not had it easy. He says in verse eight, we do not want you to be unaware brethren of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life like this has Paul. Paul is reminding the Corinthians that life is not easy, and this ministry is coming, and it's been given to us by God's mercy, but it has not been. It's not been, you know, just

Andy Brennan: 23:13

sunshine and Windows. Yes,

Unknown: 23:15

exactly. It just hasn't that way. And so, you know, the word in trust has really stood out to me in recent months, as I've been thinking a lot about Second Corinthians, especially, and God entrusted Paul with this ministry. Everything, not included the successes and the sufferings, were all entrusted to Paul. He also entrusted us within the Ministry, right like he's entrusted you with a podcast. He's entrusted you guys with families and and in in this word, entrust the The Greek word is para to Fimi, which means, in passages like Second Timothy two, to place someone for one's own sake, to give in charge or to commit. So he entrusts this ministry to us for our sake.

Andy Brennan: 24:07

I love that that

Unknown: 24:09

changes the way we think of what we do right Wayne Grudem defines interest as to give someone for safekeeping, to turn over to someone to care for. And so, like, if we think about that for a moment, in conjunction with never losing heart, we have been entrusted with a task that the Lord has given to us for our good and for His glory. And that is motivation in itself. To me, it seems that we are to entrust our everything to Jesus, because no one cares for us like he does. But it also seems that the Lord entrusts some things to us, as much for our good and our growth, more than for the fact that we can handle it. He's rarely giving me anything I can actually handle so, you know, so to handle it, I actually. Have to entrust it right back to him, right so if we consider the work in front of us, and all that it entails is as an entrusted task, no matter the circumstances, it's very motivational to me, and it's something I have to think about regularly. If this has been entrusted to me, I don't want to become discouraged, I don't want to lose heart, I don't want to give up or be disappointed. I've got to stop and consider why he's given it to me, and what are the good things that I'm supposed to be learning and growing and giving him glory and worship for out

Heather Winchell: 25:37

of it, that is really good, Mandy, it

Andy Brennan: 25:40

reminds me, and I've said this before, I'm sure, but at the end of my tenure in Asia, I walked away just kind of prayerfully thinking like, Lord, it feels like you were almost more interested in what you were doing in me than what you were doing through me,

Unknown: 25:57

like your own formation. I always say that my first few years in Southeast Asia literally brought out the worst in me, just so that I could be filled with the best of him

Andy Brennan: 26:08

well. And the fact that getting back to fundraising, the fact that fundraising is hard, is that's part of it. If you get to that point, listener, and you're like, this is this is too much. This is beyond me. Well, great. That's what that's sometimes. I think that's what the Holy Spirit's been waiting for, for you to get to that point of of surrender and like, just kind of throwing your hands up, just

Heather Winchell: 26:29

even understanding that once you are on the ground in whatever your ministry looks like, whether that be domestic or cross cultural or whatever. Yeah, ministry is really hard. I mean, you know, it is the human experience that we toil in our work, but ministry has a very unique opposition. I mean, in ministry, you are effectively moving through the battleground for someone's soul, and that has unique strains and difficulties. Yeah, and so I can even see people thinking, gosh, if, if I'm like, committed to this work and it in itself, is that hard. Why do I have to have this other thing on top of it that feels really hard, but the reframe would be, and what we say over and over and over is that actually the work of building partnerships, casting vision really just the intense tethering to your why is what equips you for that ministry. So okay, I know we've kind of danced around this a little, but I guess to speak directly to it what what really is at stake if people don't challenge the idea or the doubt of, is this worth it, or does it really matter? I

Unknown: 27:44

think it's a good question. And I think how we respond to the question of, is it worth it and does it matter what's at stake is not necessarily our ministry, but just even where we're at in our relationship with God, and that is what most definitely impacts our ministry, and all that it entails, right? Yeah, because it's so easy for us to become the Savior in our ministry, right? It's so easy for

Andy Brennan: 28:14

us to be the protagonist Absolutely.

Unknown: 28:18

And the reality is, is the questions of, is it worth it, or does it matter? These questions are going to come. There's not one person of faith who has served in ministry can say that they've never had this question. Right? These questions have come, but we also can't sit in these questions. And when they arise, we have to learn how to defeat them with the Scripture, otherwise we become way too self focused, and we get easily ensnared with the lies of the enemy. And so when it comes to our ministry or even our fundraising, the questions of, is it worth it, and does it matter? Need to be rebutted by looking to who God is and what he is doing in us and through us. And so we see in Second Corinthians, chapter one, verse nine and 10, just after Paul is telling the Corinthians about his afflictions. In Verse eight, he goes on to say, Indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, who delivered us from a great imperil of death, and will deliver us he on whom we have set our hope. So, you know, I think it's really important for just, for us to just have passages of scripture on hand that will defeat these questions, yeah, and so I actually made a list. I keep a lot of lists in my journals when I come down to places like doubt, and just to go back to these passages. And so I'm not going to read passages to you, but I'm going to just give you a list of references, of verses that when I have questions of, is this worth it? Does this matter? These are some of the questions. These are some of the passages that I read. To put my mind back on Jesus, Revelation, 15, three, First Chronicles, 2911 through 13. First Chronicles 1631, Psalm, nine, seven through 10. Psalms, 103 19 through 22 Psalm, 96 Psalm 93 one through five. First Timothy 117 First Timothy 615, and 16. Isaiah, 44 six through nine. Psalm 145, eight through 13. First Corinthians, 1520, through 28 Zechariah, nine, nine. John, 1836, to 37 Hebrews one, three through four, and Hebrews one eight through 12, and the reality is the list goes on, but ultimately, the word of God is what defeats the doubts in our head, and the Word of God is a part of putting on that warrior armor that we find in Ephesians six, right? We need all of the armor, the helmet of salvation that deflects the questions of doubt and the sword of the Spirit that chops off the head of the enemy, like every bit of armor, plus the army around us that's all of our brothers and sisters, like it's vital to not being consumed in doubt, but walking in the confidence that the Lord has entrusted us With this ministry, with this task for such a time as this that gives me a confidence to move forward and not give up when trials and hiccups and sufferings arise. And I would say one other thing that I would say regarding questions of, is it worth it, or does it matter? Comes from the leader of the organization that I work for, and he says that we need to consider whether or not the father has lifted our hand from the plow. Often we are hit with questions of, does it matter, or is it worth it, especially if we are not retracting or rebutting these questions with the word and we begin to think about quitting, I would encourage us to always stop and consider whether or not the father is actually asking us to lift our hand from the plow or to continue moving forward and plowing ahead, and because the answer to that question always results in a positive yes to those other two questions, and that changes our way of thinking very quickly.

Heather Winchell: 32:20

And I think that's even just a great, you know, mental image. I mean, I have not personally had the experience of plowing something by hand, what? So I'll just say that. But from, you know, exposure to that idea that I've had, I'm just thinking about, or even just thinking of my dad tilling our garden when I was a kid. You hit ground, like you hit spaces where it your ability to just move forward and continue is agitated. You have to stop and remove rocks. You have to, I mean, there's the ground is too hard. You have to. There's all kinds of things that can stop your movement at that moment, to be prevented from moving forward to feel like there's no way, or whatever it is. It really does matter if you feel if you've been told, okay, there's no more to do here, or is it time for me to be done? You know, it's because you're going to hit obstacles, you're going to hit opposition, you're going to hurdle come to something that feels like an impasse. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong or that you took a wrong turn, or that you're not meant to wait or to somehow move forward.

Andy Brennan: 33:32

Yeah. Are you at the end of your lot or at the end of your acreage? Yeah? Or are you just hitting something, yeah? Yeah? Well, I mean, Scripture is the ultimate healthy soundtrack. I believe that. So you gave us a lot of references. We'll have to put those in the show notes, yeah.

Heather Winchell: 33:48

Well, and even, I mean, obviously it would be my hope that people would have ready access to Scripture always. And this kind of comes back to our formation in the way we are formed for these moments, the way we are prepared for these moments, even if in the moment you're not able to reference a verse, like, let's say you're in the middle of a hard moment and you're not able to access that, but hopefully, by knowing scripture, and really by knowing how scripture shapes the way you view God, Really, that moment is just about entrusting yourself to God because of his character, and even in the absence of verses, the simple act of truly being able to entrust yourself to God also studies your heart. Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown: 34:35

That's just called prayer, right? Yeah, and that's exactly what it is.

Heather Winchell: 34:40

You know, sometimes on the show, we have a lot of conversation around things that are just kind of based in people's experiences, the way that they've encountered blessing or opposition and fundraising, things like that. I really appreciate that this conversation has had so much Scripture brought to mind. I think that's really, really good. And so I think it's just been a really. Fruitful conversation. And the last question I have for you, Mandy, actually is around another part of that scripture from Second Corinthians four. And I think this might be a different translation from the one you read for us. I think these words come from the ESV, but there's a verse that references disgraceful or underhanded ways in practicing cunning and tampering with God's ways, and that is really strong language. And I am wondering, what warning Do you think this has for those working in ministry or fundraising?

Unknown: 35:39

Let me read. Let me actually read it from the Amplified Version. Okay, great. I'm just really into amplified these days, I guess so. Yeah, it says, but we have renounced the disgraceful things hidden because of shame, not walking in trickery or adulterating the Word of God, okay, but by stating the truth openly and plainly, we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. But even if our gospel is in some sense hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only to those who are perishing among them, the god of this world, Satan has blinded the minds of the unbelieving to prevent them from seeing the illuminating light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. I think it is very easy for us to make fundraising ministry and the word of God about us. Mm, right. I mean, yeah. In Second Corinthians, Paul shows us how the Judaizers were manipulating, twisting and even interpreting the scripture to fit their own desires, and people were following them. That's what this first part of Second Corinthians is all about. Hey guys, this is what. This is what's happening. You're saying that you are living this way, or that you're going to walk according to Christ, but you're following these Judaizers who are twisting the Scripture, yeah, and making it about themselves. And this still happens today, like I've even been guilty of it at some points in my life, you know. And I want to say that that was mostly out of ignorance to my own knowledge and understanding of the word of God. And so I personally am trying to I'm working to increase that knowledge and understanding. I have read the Scripture and maybe even, regrettably, taught the Scripture and tried to interpret it to fit something I wanted to prove, or something I wanted to be right for me in a moment or a situation, even in fundraising, right? Yeah. Paul does not do this. He interprets the Scripture in the context of the scripture, and uses the fundamentals of interpretation to teach and walk according to the Word of God. And so we've heard it said that we are we need to bend our lives and ministry according to the scripture, not bend the Scripture according to our lives and what we want for our ministry, what we want our outcomes to be. But that it happens way too often. We're bending the scripture to make to to make our ministry work, or to make our fundraising Yeah, just Yeah, to justify or to make it more more appealing to other people, right? And so our job, our well. So the reality is, according to second Corinthians four, the enemy blinds the mind of the lost right, our job, our responsibility, is to speak the truth of the Word in the context of the word and recognize that the Lord will lift the veil according to His sovereign will mm, he is going to lift the veil for people he we walk in obedience stating the Truth openly and plainly, our lives and our ministry are commended by the Lord, not by numbers or but or the perceptions that others have of us. And so I think it's so easy for us to manipulate that and and that's just so, oh, it's anti truth, you know. And it's, it's, it's, ultimately, it's the the horrible three letter word of sin. That's what it is when we're when we're trying to, when we're trying to practice hunting ways and and let me just say this once again, I don't think that it's always based on the posture of heart and mind of of someone who's trying to be cunning. I think it's due to, sometimes to our ignorance of God's word, and we're just pulling scriptures that make that might shine pretty, so that it makes a picture look good or under a. Look good, or giving to to look good. And so one of the cross cultural workers that has made a huge impact in my life over the years is a man named James O Frazier. And he was a British cross cultural worker to the Lisu people in southwest China in the early 1900s and Fraser had a very difficult beginning to his work, and the first seven years of his work among the Lisu people saw no conversions and very little interest. Tough. Fraser could have easily manipulated the word to get his point across, both to the Lisu and to those who were praying and financially supporting him back in in England, yeah. But instead, Fraser focused on learning the language. He developed an alphabet in the Lisu language and prayer. Those were his top three, the top three things that he did in seven years, seven years of not seeing any fruit for everything he was giving to these people talk about, you know, you know, this man had to have moments of discouragement and questions of, is it worth it, and does it matter? Yeah. And those questions could have easily turned into, what can I do to get this across to them? Because obviously, God's word isn't working. That's that would have probably been my thought, is Okay, what else can I do to make this happen? Because, because, obviously I've got this word, I've got the word translated into their language, and they're still not grasping, you know? But in year eight, Fraser saw 600 Lisu people baptized, and wow, church formed 600 in one year, and that church is actually still growing today. And so, you know, the veil was lifted in God's time, and Fraser walked and taught in obedience, and the harvest came. It doesn't always happen quickly. Obviously, sometimes even our fundraising takes time. I know some people that were moving to a to a place in East Asia that is pretty expensive, and it took them almost seven years to raise their support to go overseas. Yeah, you know what? It's also a part of the task that we talked about earlier, the fact that we do not need to change the word to make our point. Instead, we need to stay in the word, not losing heart, but trusting that our God will lift the veil in his time for his glory and our good. I think those types of things are really that's that's the warning is stay focused in the word for what it is. Not to get your ministry further along, not to not to see numbers grow, whether that's fundraising numbers or conversion numbers, but to see him glorified.

Andy Brennan: 42:55

Don't prove text. Don't try to justify your your private airplane or your fancy watch, yeah. And that, that word that you use at the very beginning of this segment, they were adulterating the Word of God. That's such a powerful phrase like it makes me think of like merging the word with your flesh or with the world. And that's just that. That's a picture for me of, like, the ultimate like, that's just bending it to meet your will. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather Winchell: 43:29

And, like you said, I don't think that the cunning is always malicious, or, you know, manipulative. I think the desire to be well intentioned, we can just find ourselves trying to, I mean, even even in fundraising, you know, even something as simple as making a biblical way of fundraising, the biblical way of fundraising kind of trying to take and then capture God and like, well, this is the way God works. This is the way God is going to do this. And then, you know, perpetuating that that can actually even be adulterating, right? Because it puts it puts the emphasis on, well, this is the way that God has to, or is going to do it, versus, this is a way that God has done this.

Andy Brennan: 44:15

It emphasizes the system, right, right? Which, how does that strike you as a systems person,

Unknown: 44:24

yeah, no, it definitely emphasizes the system. It's but here, here's what's interesting is that systems were, you know, especially systems built by man, have to be, have to be changed. But the Lord system is, is not, doesn't have to be changed, right? It doesn't we. Doesn't have to bend. It can't bend. So I guess that's part of it too. Is that every system and structure in this world is finite, capable of being changed, and finite, absolutely, yeah, yeah, because of, because of that so well,

Heather Winchell: 44:56

and really, when it comes down to it, the Lord's system. Is, ultimately, we depend on him, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. It's him, yeah, it's him, yeah.

Unknown: 45:09

And when it comes to him, it's always worth it, right?

Heather Winchell: 45:12

Yes, yep, yes, emphatically, yes. Well, this has been, I would, I would say, this has been a lot of encouragement. Is there anything you would want to say outside of what we've already discussed? By way of encouragement to our listeners as they persevere in support based ministry,

Unknown: 45:30

yeah, I mean, just you're not alone. I'm sure you've heard that before. But if you're struggling your partnership development, you know there are others who have been there and are there now. And so I would just encourage you reach out to colleagues and seek insight and tips, like, what are you doing? Or how are you praying? Can you pray for me? Look for those things if you're beginning to question where you are and what you're doing and whether or not it's worth it, also just lift your eyes to the hills and remember that your help comes from the Lord who made heaven and earth. He doesn't sleep. He is your helper and your keeper, and everything you do for him is worth it. That's that is. That's the lesson I'm constantly trying to remind myself of, yeah.

Andy Brennan: 46:19

Well, thanks, Mandy, it's been fantastic. Any other resources you would recommend to our listeners? So

Unknown: 46:26

I would say, if you haven't taken a perspectives course and you think that you have time for that, especially if you're still in the States for a while, definitely look into finding one for you. I am from rural Texas, and I had to drive an hour to get it to my perspective scores once a week. But it was worth it. It was absolutely worth it. So perspectives.org, I'd say, if you want to know more about James o'fraser, I would actually recommend two books by one is called Mountain rain, and that's by Eileen Fraser Crossman, and I don't actually remember how she's related to James. She may be his daughter, excellent book called Mountain rain. The other is called the prayer of faith by James O Fraser. And both of these will give an excellent picture of walking through a valley in ministry and knowing why it's worth it. And then I would just encourage anyone who does not already know how to study scripture for themselves to learn. I know there are a number of people who hear from the Lord and are walking in obedience, but still do not have knowledge and understanding of God's word without listening or reading someone else's interpretation. And that's not a bad thing, but man, the word comes alive. Seriously, it comes alive when you know how to read it for yourself. And so I would encourage people to learn how to do that. And some resources for learning that would be, well, the navs, if you go in the navigator's website, they have resources to help you get started. Logos has a step by step online tool to help and precept.org is also good. They have they'll teach you and provide questions for study. So those would be some of my resources.

Andy Brennan: 48:13

Awesome. Great resources from an academic. Yeah,

Heather Winchell: 48:17

all right. Dr Mandy, final question, you have been invited to give a TED talk, and you take the stage in 10 minutes, and you cannot speak on fundraising or your doctoral thesis, okay, okay, what's your talk going to be about? Yeah,

Unknown: 48:33

this was probably the hardest question for me to answer today. You know, I think it would be, I love biographies of workers and people, and I think I would like to find and just share people's stories. So I think that would be some form of TED talk on how to how to share stories of people, like listening to people asking good questions, and then figuring out ways to share their stories creatively, maybe so cool. Yeah, man,

Heather Winchell: 49:04

if you, if you do that, I'd love to hear it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time, Dr Mandy, and may the Lord bless you in just every sense of the word, as you launch into this new season in Central Asia. Thank

Unknown: 49:24

you. Thank you. It's been great being with y'all today.

Andy Brennan: 49:30

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