50.5 Goodwin Recap

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Transcript

Heather Winchell: Welcome back everybody. We are in studio today to recap the conversation that we had with Jenilee Goodwin here today with me is Andy, 

Andy Brennan: as always. 

Heather Winchell: As always. We want to walk through our time with Jenilee focusing on neurodiversity in fundraising. 

Andy Brennan: And I'll be honest, when I first heard this topic when it was first pitched to me and to us, I was a little skeptical just because I don't think I know enough.

And I was like, oh, how many people does this actually apply to? 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. And I wonder if there are any people that have heard the episode and maybe before that they would've never thought that applied to them. But then after hearing some of the ways that the neurodivergent brain can operate differently in fundraising, they're like, oh, actually that's been my experience.

~Yeah. ~Yeah. Something she said that. I think people really could resonate with, and it could be season of life, or it could be the way your brain works or whatever, is just the high cost of such like [00:01:00] high social engagement. 

Andy Brennan: Right? 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. And how tiring that is, right? Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: And that doesn't necessarily apply just to neurodivergent that just, you know, is tiring for almost everybody, I think.

~Right.~ 

Heather Winchell: At times. But it's like an added initial thing for It's 

Andy Brennan: a layer. 

Heather Winchell: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. A layer. That's a good word. And maybe before we get too deep into this recap, I just want to redefine the way she defined neurodivergent. Basically just meaning that there is a biological difference in how the brain processes information.

Andy Brennan: Okay. 

Heather Winchell: And so this covers a wide spectrum of things. The word spectrum is often associated with many things that fall into the bucket of neurodivergent. But then outside of that, there are also. A lot of other considerations as well. And so I thought it was really helpful to just hear from her how broad Yeah, this is.

Andy Brennan: Yeah. I think we think of the extremes often. That's where in our humanity, that's where our mind goes. But ~it is, ~it does cover a lot of [00:02:00] different things that you may or may not even notice about other people or even about yourself. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah, and I think another thing Jenilee really did that I appreciated was just to really.

Point out that this isn't some kind of mistake or deficit. It's just a difference in the way that people operate, in the way that their brain works.

Yeah. Having kind of redefined that for the audience, what stood out to you, Andy? 

Andy Brennan: Well, we started talking about this already, but she commented at the beginning that, ~um, ~when a lot of people talk about fundraising, they emphasize, that it is kind of overwhelming.

There's a sense of burnout or dread even when it comes to fundraising. . I feel like that's a little, it's unfortunate. Yeah. Right. Because I think it comes to the perspective of, focusing maybe too much on the budget, on getting your ministry expense, needs met versus really the holistic.

Approach to fundraising that we've been trying to highlight? 

Heather Winchell: Yes. And it just, it really gives me so much compassion for [00:03:00] people because generally coaches in this area. Right? She like coaches, people that have come to this place of burnout. And it just really struck me that most people she works with are already at burnout.

So they've already exhausted themselves and it just gives me so much compassion for how diligently I think people are working and how hard. They're working and I just, yeah. I really hope this conversation along with, like you said, the more holistic approach to fundraising. I really hope these actually give people tools so that they don't get to a place of burnout before they get the help they need.

Andy Brennan: Yeah. And it sounds like a simple response to say, well, it's all about your perspective. 

Heather Winchell: Mm. 

Andy Brennan: But it does change a lot. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. And I think just normalizing again, that. There are so many invitations to really see and own our weakness, and in that there is actually a different access to Christ's strength, right?

Like when we really surrender and own, I [00:04:00] can do this on my own. Mm-hmm. I do think it actually postures us differently to receive differently from him. 

Andy Brennan: ~Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ~Yeah, we talked about that a long time ago when we were discussing the Enneagram and how the, our weaknesses are part of our design. It's not all about finding how you're strong, but it's knowing when we need to go to the Lord

and how he can use us in spite of and through our weaknesses. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Andy Brennan: Well, that draws me to the next highlight, I guess, which would be this myth of the ideal fundraiser. And we've talked about this before, right? The missionary hero is a myth that we talk about a lot, but also this myth of there's an ideal perfect fundraiser archetype.

Heather Winchell: Right. 

Andy Brennan: And that it, ~it's just, ~it doesn't exist 

Heather Winchell: or there's like an ideal process by which you get funded. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And not, not to say, 'cause I mean, we've even had guests on here this very season that highlight the importance of, you know, hey, like if you're willing, I'll get you there because I have a good plan.

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: So I'm [00:05:00] not trying to discount that necessarily. I think I'm just also offering that. Really, we're free to work the plan until there's a disruption that helps us see like, mm-hmm. Oh God, maybe you're gonna do this differently 

Andy Brennan: until it doesn't work. 

Heather Winchell: Right. Until it doesn't work.

And in that you don't despair, but you turn to God with curiosity saying, okay, what, what now? 

Andy Brennan: Right. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: And I think that's what we've tried to highlight as well with our whole miniseries, on fundraising in ethnically diverse mm-hmm. Communities. And that's what we talked about with.

Tony Denman. 

Heather Winchell: Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: Right. You have to be malleable, you have to be adjustable. The same role, the same shoe doesn't fit everybody. 

Heather Winchell: Right. 

Andy Brennan: I'm thinking of a young lady that I'm working with now

who comes from a very traditional, background, very conservative, and she polled all of the people in her life. Well, not all the people, but some close friends from different segments and just said, okay, this is what they're asking me to do. They're asking me to ask people directly for finances. How do you think that would go [00:06:00] over?

And the vast majority of people that she talked to were like, oh, that is not gonna go well. Interesting. So she got a little bit of a heads up and they go, okay, well not everybody said that, but some of them did. And so I think if you know that going in like this is a very like indirect community driven, we like to give an anonymity.

Kind of a culture. Well, let's not try to force her way in there and like bulldoze Yes. And say, well, no, what Steve told me to do it this way, the Shad. Right. Which is great. And I think it, like we said, it works well for most people, but, I think actually have done more harm than good. So we're being creative with her as I'm coaching her.

Like, let's have some events. Invite people to these different things and without getting into all the logistics of it, I think that's gonna work for her. 

Heather Winchell: Mm. Cool. Yeah, I really appreciate it. That, you know, in our conversation with Jenilee, she just really highlighted that once people stop kind of trying to conform to a [00:07:00] certain way of doing things, they really can thrive when they, when they kinda just settle into, you know, trusting God in their own design and the way he's made them.

And I think one of the most practical things about that. For some people having less donors might actually be 

Andy Brennan: strategic. 

Heather Winchell: Strategic, yeah. And God's provision for them. And of course, you know, maybe that may, you know, listener, maybe you're like, Hey, I've, I've like tried for that and I just, I can't control what people give.

I can't control how many people join my team. But, so there, I mean it's definitely this dance in reliance on the Lord and what he brings and then also your own. Kind of conviction and what, what you're hoping for, you know, but mm-hmm. But I just think it's a good thing to have in mind, like pray specifically, you know, if you, if you have an understanding that like, wow, I, I just really feel limited in my capacity to care.

Well for, yeah. You know, more than 75 partners. Well just pray to that end. And if the answer's no, you can trust that. 

Andy Brennan: Good. 

Heather Winchell: [00:08:00] Yeah. I thought that was a really practical thing she said. 

Andy Brennan: And if you feel comfortable being even transparent with your donors as you're meeting with them saying, this is what I think my capacity is.

So would you be willing to consider a larger gift? So like I can care for you as an individual more. If I have 30 donors, I think I can do that well. Mm-hmm. If I have 75 or a hundred donors, I don't think I'll do it. Well, 

Heather Winchell: Another key element that I think relates to this is just the importance of having a strong team around you.

So a core team or people that are, that understand your unique needs and that are committed to walking alongside you. I think that is part of God's good design. Mm-hmm. Putting us in community. Mm-hmm. And I think it's something we're so reticent to really embrace.

Like maybe even, especially in our culture of hyper independence, but I just think it's such a rich invitation. 

Andy Brennan: You need it on the field. You need a team on the field, but you also need it pre-field. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. [00:09:00] Yeah. Honestly, any believer that's listening to this, the invitation for being richly known in community is for you 

Andy Brennan: that that's across the board.

Yeah. That's good. She was talking about families and kind of a, an understanding of, or maybe a misconception of what people think a missionary family should look like and how they function. Yeah. That was informative. 

Heather Winchell: I think so, and I think that, you know, as she was saying that, it really made a lot of sense to me that that can be a very overwhelming environment Yeah.

For kids, right? 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. As she said, we just assume that the missionary family is up for whatever. Their kids must be indestructible. 

Heather Winchell: Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: And I think that's also just a message to the missionaries that are listening to this. That might be an expectation, but it's unrealistic. So don't feel like you have to hit that 

Heather Winchell: right.

Andy Brennan: And try to work yourself into this mold of like, this is who people expect us to be. This is who we have to be. That to me. [00:10:00] Feels like a recipe for burnout. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Oh yeah. Disaster. Yeah. And it just again, brings my heart to such compassion for these families that are just trying to navigate that tension of being accountable to and serving their partners, but not being beholden to them.

Mm-hmm. And that, that works out even with the best of intentions. Right? Like, I think part of her example was like, Hey, you've spoken to the church and now this family wants to take you out to eat, but you know, your kids are like fried. ~Yeah. ~But it's like, how do you tell somebody no when they're wanting to bless you?

And then does it feel like you're ungrateful and their face donors? So there's all these complex things to think through and I just, I feel like they are difficult. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. And I think maybe just being clear like, we really value you?

We really want to do this, we just, the kids aren't ready for it. Mm-hmm. 

Heather Winchell: Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: So just being clear with that. I feel like that's, if you're transparent, you're direct, you're clear. That goes a long way rather than, Hey, we just can't do it right now. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. ~Yeah.~ 

Andy Brennan: So, 

Heather Winchell: yeah, because I think most people would understand, [00:11:00] it's just having the own awareness and the own ability to stay with your own conviction of what you need.

Yeah. Yeah. You would think so. Yeah. Yeah.

I also appreciated that she just spoke to many of the strengths that people with a neurodivergent brain, bring to the table, you know, and 

Andy Brennan: Right. 

Heather Winchell: I think you even talked about a previous client that you worked with, that the way she showed up to the world was actually really helpful in her fundraising journey.

Andy Brennan: It was really encouraging. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: It was really like almost convicting as well, just the, the courage that she brought to not only the fundraising, but just to her everyday life. I was like, wow. That she is a certain kind of archetype. Mm-hmm. She's, checking a lot of boxes mm-hmm.

That I haven't checked. Mm-hmm. To be honest. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: And it just, it reminds me of a conversation we had with. Rebecca [00:12:00] C and I think this was in season three, around the strengths finder. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. 

Heather Winchell: And I just really feel like that's a tool that people should utilize. You know, whether you work with a coach, just go online, take the test, pay the, you know, 20 bucks for the report.

That gives you your top five strengths because really, like whoever you are, whatever kind of brain you have, learning more about the unique wiring you have and how that uniquely shows up to the world, those strengths. I really just do think that there's a lot of power in. Putting your attention on those 

Andy Brennan: self, not knowing yourself?

Heather Winchell: Yes, actually, I just started rereading a book that is called The Gift of Being Yourself. Hmm. David Benner, and it's just really great because, and immediately at the very beginning of the book he, he kind of holds the tension of like, some people might feel nervous by talking about knowing yourself 'cause they'll think that the emphasis needs to be on knowing God.

But I would actually argue that we know God best when we know ourselves,

Which I think is something that Augustine said back in the day and has just continued to be rephrased [00:13:00] throughout time.

Andy Brennan: He was a smart guy. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: Well, I like that because, by getting to know yourself, you're getting to know the guy who made you. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Yeah, so I think that I really appreciated some of the strengths that she highlighted.

Andy Brennan: And I think it's unfortunate if like a, church. Or admissions committee is like, this is a picture of a ideal missionary candidate and they check all these kind of normal normative boxes. But man, we are, the mission community arguably should be a microcosm of the larger body.

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: Those people have roles and they have, stories and voices that need to be heard. I think. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. You know what it made me think of Andy, it makes me think of how. ~I, ~I really feel like the trend these days, or maybe we're moving away from it, but like in building houses, there was a trend for a while where it was like there's three plans and three colors, and basically neighborhoods are made up of these three plans and these three colors.

Andy Brennan: Cookie cutter. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. Versus like going to kind of older housing [00:14:00] developments and it's like there were different builders and different, right. Maybe there's some things about that that feel. A little more eclectic or quirky or it's like, oh, that doesn't quite fit with this.

So maybe it feels like more calming to be in something that's all the same 

Andy Brennan: uniform. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah, but there's not actually anything that stands out or. Makes you, 

Andy Brennan: it feels sterile. 

Heather Winchell: Yes. It feels sterile, which brings a certain kind of comfort, but not awe or delight or wonder, 

Andy Brennan: right?

Yeah. Not curiosity 

Heather Winchell: or curiosity 

Andy Brennan: because you walk by some of those houses and you're like, oh, why? They made it interesting choice, 

Heather Winchell: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my 

Andy Brennan: neighbor, my neighbor growing up. They had decided at some point, and I grew up in Phoenix and so, you know, lots of desert landscaping, but this individual, and they weren't my direct neighbors, so I didn't really know them, had decided to pave the entire yard in concrete except for holes where they had trees coming out.[00:15:00] 

And then paint the concrete green. 

Heather Winchell: Wow. 

Andy Brennan: I am still confused. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah, 

Andy Brennan: Yeah, it's a choice. 

Heather Winchell: Well, and the neighborhood we're in, our current neighbor told us that when she bought the house, it was Pepto. Bismal. Pink Pepto-Bismol Pink. 

Andy Brennan: Pepto-Bismol pink.

Heather Winchell: Yep. And so that's rough. Yeah. So here's the thing, like we're both highlighting that these opportunities to be unique can cause agitation or it can create problems. Or maybe like discord. That's wouldn't be there if everything was just kind of same. Same. But it's exactly in that.

That I think we learn to love people in a gospel way. Yeah. So 

Andy Brennan: it's unfortunate if you feel like you have to dress a certain way or, laugh a certain way or have a certain kind of vehicle or whatever to be a Christian. 

Heather Winchell: Right. 

Andy Brennan: Right. And the same would be true to be a missionary.

Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

Andy Brennan: So, 

Heather Winchell: yeah. 

Andy Brennan: God makes us [00:16:00] unique. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. He sure does. 

Andy Brennan: Well, she started to highlight like what are the, some of the systems and solutions that we can think about, getting really practical for neuro individuals. And so one of the things she said is that the budget doesn't have to be raised in a super quick time.

It really is. Okay. And so I think, yeah, let's just realize that the pace might be a little bit slower and then, you know, we've emphasized this again and again and again. That consistency is greater than intensity. That's something that our friend Mary Lon mentions on her podcast. If you can find something that you can do on a consistent basis, that ultimately that slow and steady, that does win the race. Mm-hmm. That's not just some axiom that. Not based in reality. Right. That's truth. 

Heather Winchell: Right. And we know that there's tension to that because, Andy and I have both worked with clients that are moving into opportunities that are time sensitive.

Yeah. So there, there really is kind of a deadline in terms of going into that specific placement or [00:17:00] ministry. So there, there's definitely a dynamic tension and I really think that if it takes longer than. We hope we can trust God with that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and I think it's just worth saying and reiterating that I don't think the design is to get you there, but for you to already be burned out or to get you there by the skin of your teeth.

Right? 

Andy Brennan: Or to get you there drastically underfunded and just say, Hey, go ahead and go anyways and keep fundraising, because you're. You're going under the, the added pressure of like, man, I have to do my ministry, I have to adjust to a new environment. Sometimes a brand new culture that's very different and I also have to worry about my finances.

So it's probably better to give them more margin on the front end and see if your systems can be flexible. 

Heather Winchell: Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: Ideally. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah. I think something else just kind of related to the systems and maybe even oversight of [00:18:00] people. She mentioned that sometimes people get to the field and they, they realize they're struggling.

Maybe they realize like, Hey, this doesn't work for me, the way it works for other people. And when they try to raise their hand, people will be like, no, you're fine. It's okay. You know? Which again, is another tension because I think that. I think sometimes we do need people encouraging us, like, Hey, it's gonna be okay.

You know, I know this feels big, but it's gonna be okay. But certainly in the context that she brought it up, it was keeping people from really being seen in a way that was consequential. Mm-hmm. For them going forward. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I think that, you know, for any leaders out there listening to this, I would just encourage you to, be really quick to listen.

And slow to speak and seek the spirit on how he would have you respond 

Andy Brennan: and be willing to engage on the individual level. 

Heather Winchell: Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: We wanna be, especially if you're, if you're a driven, you know, individual, you're a leader, you need to be efficient and you [00:19:00] need to, part of your job is to come up with efficiencies in ways to, to make things hum.

Sometimes to be effective, you have to sit down across from the person and really hear them out and see like, this is what they've done, this is what they've tried. And not just take them at face value and say like, well, what does that mean that you say you did that? What does that actually look like?

What does your process look like? Let's get into the weeds and like, let's find something that works for you. Because I think there are ways. 

Heather Winchell: Yeah.

And I guess as I just, you know, think about bringing our recap to a close and highlighting what I'm really hoping listeners take away, I think people just take away an understanding that like, you know what, again, it's not a formula. This works out differently for different people and that's okay.

It doesn't have to be a bad thing. Mm-hmm. 

Andy Brennan: Mm-hmm. 

Heather Winchell: It doesn't have to mean something is wrong. And I really hope that people, engage if they feel like, Hey, I could really use some help. I really hope they do engage the resources that generally has. And I know [00:20:00] she mentioned that Global Trellis, which is, you know, a nonprofit organization serving anybody that finds themselves in global mission work.

They had a whole week talking about this, so more expansive than our conversation was able to be and focused on different areas, not just fundraising. Yeah. I would recommend that. And then I know Jenilee herself has, I believe, a blog and a website that people could, could check out. 

Andy Brennan: Yeah. And I love that, final reminder, you're not failing.

It is hard and it's okay to do it differently. 

Heather Winchell: Alright. Well, that concludes our recap. And Andy, why don't you tell us what we have coming up next week?

Andy Brennan: Yeah. We have, a good friend of mine, I've known him for years, Dr. Ekren Miller, and he has recently found himself in a role where he is, fundraising for, large organizations and going after larger gifts.

And so we're looking at how does that kind of big system, how can we take the big system [00:21:00] concepts and apply it to our individual fundraising? 

Heather Winchell: And it is a fantastic conversation and Ekren is a really cool guy. 

Andy Brennan: He really is. So yeah. Top tier you 

Heather Winchell: can, yeah, you can check that out next week. And for now, thanks for being here.